(Shaun Banfield)     Can I just start by asking about when did you first start Shotokan karate, and why?

(Harry Cook)     I started training in Shotokan at the beginning of 1968. I actually started karate in September 1966 with Wado Ryu but the dojo more or less collapsed when the two green belt instructors left, one to find work and the other to go to university. I had met a girl whose father did Shotokan in Sunderland, so I joined that dojo. His name was Ken Smith and he was my first Shotokan instructor. Ken became the first man to get a dan grade in Shotokan from the KUGB in the north-east of England.

(SB)     We recently watched ‘The Ultimate Aim’ by Legend Productions, and you talk quite passionately about the KUGB. How would you describe your experiences under Master Enoeda, but also under the many other significant figures of the KUGB?

(HC)     There were many experiences, but I guess the thing that stays with me was the stress on developing strong technically correct techniques through hard physical training. A degree of strong contact was expected, as a kind of ‘pain inoculation’ so that when push came to shove you were ready. Enoeda sensei was noted for his strong spirit; this more than anything left an impression.

(SB)     Did training among such karateka (Andy Sherry etc.) inspire and influence you, and in what ways?

(HC)     Andy was very like Enoeda sensei in the way he taught and the kind of things he was looking for. He didn’t really explain all that much, but tended to concentrate on doing the techniques over and over again until the student managed to get something right!! The KUGB seniors that influenced me the most were Terry O’Neill and Steve Cattle. Terry is a tremendous kicker and long range fighter while Steve, being smaller, tended to use his hands more. I learned a lot from both of them. Also Steve was a very skilful judoka so he could use throws as well as the more usual karate techniques. They both had a highly developed sense of curiosity about other systems which encouraged me to look outside the box a little.

(SB)     Of course, you also became an English teacher in Japan. Did you get time to train at many of the major dojos, and how would you describe training in the ‘heartland’?

(HC)     My plan originally was to train at the JKA, but Terry O’Neill told me to go and see Higaonna. Once I had seen him I didn’t feel the need to bother with any of the others. I did train at Kanazawa sensei’s dojo every now and then but to be honest they were doing basically the same things I had been doing in the UK. I dabbled with a bit of sword and jo but the bulk of my training was at the Yoyogi Shurenkai dojo of Higaonna sensei. In most dojos training physically demanding, and some instructors are without any doubt racist bullies; they take advantage of foreign students and batter them while claiming they are teaching them budo. It is nonsense. I stress that this was a minority. Higaonna sensei was never like that; we got bashed yes, but everyone did, it was a natural part of the training.

(SB)     Did you learn to speak Japanese during your time in Japan? If not, was the language barrier difficult to adjust to?

(HC)     I studied Chinese at Durham University before I went to Japan so I could read the kanji, more or less. Spoken Japanese I learned to a point, but I was never really fluent. Training didn’t demand major language ability really. Also I was very lucky to make a good friend in Yoyogi dojo, a man called Steve Bellamy who spoke very good Japanese. Now many people have little good to say about Steve Bellamy but he was very kind to me and helped me a lot. He has had a number of problems and we have gone our own ways now, but I will always be grateful for the help and friendship he gave me.

(SB)     Would you say experiencing the Japanese culture for an extended period affected your karate in any way?

(HC)     Well it more or less confirmed my awareness that the way karate has evolved is very much a product of Japanese values and practices, and if we want to make karate our own we have to follow a similar pattern in the west, that is we have to infuse karate training with western values. I guess in a way living in Japan made me more western!!. I do not try to reproduce or copy the Japanese way of doing things

(SB)     I believe you spent a period of time studying under Master Kanazawa; can you share some stories about your time with him?

(HC)     I trained at his dojo a number of times, but I cannot really claim to be a product of his teachings. One thing I do recall was watching him practicing for a nunchaku demonstration, during which an assistant was supposed to throw an apple in the air as a target. In training he used a ball of paper and Kanazawa sensei missed it more times than he hit it. However when he did the demo in the Budokan he was totally accurate.

I also had a run in with a right nasty little thug at Kanazawa sensei’s dojo; obviously my white skin annoyed him and he tried to break my arm. Things got a bit heated when I returned the complement and Kanazawa sensei stepped in and told him off in no uncertain terms. He made the young Japanese ‘gentleman’ apologise to me; I could see just how sincere his apology was by the look in his eyes!!

(SB)     You are also Chief Instructor of the ‘Seijinkai Karate-Do Association’. What were your objectives in the creation of this association, and how does your approach differ to other associations?

(HC)     The Seijinkai came about because I was teaching both Shotokan and Goju Ryu in parallel and the existing associations didn’t really fit the needs of me or my students. As for how we differ I would say we are far less interested in competitions (although my daughter is doing well in university karate) and content is seen to be more important than form. Actually Julian Mead’s group and Derek Ridgway’s group are very similar, which is why we are good friends and together with Alastair Mitchell we form the Traditional Martial Arts Federation. We all stress practical self defence over competition training or aesthetics and I would say we all use kata as the heart of what we do.

(SB)     You mentioned you also practice Goju-ryu alongside your Shotokan training. In what ways has this benefited you?

(HC)     Basically Goju Ryu unlocked the Shotokan kata for me in terms of understanding possible applications and so on. Shotokan has become too linear and too influenced by tournament considerations, while Goju Ryu (at least the way we trained in Higaonna sensei’s dojo in the 1970s) was far less concerned about tournament or aesthetic values. Learning how to correctly perform and apply techniques such as mawashi uke for example was more or less impossible in Shotokan, while in Goju Ryu is a basic skill taught to low grades.

(SB)     I read that - within your organization - at Dan Grading, the student has to perform Tamashi-wari. Why do you think this is an important part of our karate training?

(HC)     Not an important part of training as such, I mean we do not practice breaking boards in the regular classes,  but it is important that at dan grade a karate-ka can deliver a strong blow…..many cannot. Breaking a board tests this and it is a small test of courage. I have seen many quite highly graded karateka who are fooling themselves about the power of their techniques. I have been told that if they were to land a punch on anyone that person would die. I often test myself by getting them to hit me; I am not dead yet!!

(SB)     You also state that Dan grades must have a ‘strong sense of zanshin’. Could you please elaborate on your interpretation of the concept of zanshin?

(HC)     Zanshin literally means ‘remaining mind/spirit’ and it basically means maintaining a ‘switched       on’ mental state during all phases of training, including those times when you think things are safe. It is best summarised in the Japanese expression ‘katte kabuto-no o shimeyo’ (after victory tighten your helmet cords).

(SB)     Do you have any suggested methods of training that may enhance the karateka’s understanding of zanshin?

(HC)     One useful training method is to have a number of attackers stand in a circle around the defender. Each attacker has a number and attacks when that number is called out. The defender responds to the attack and counters. The attackers are free to use any attack and some of them could be armed with padded sticks, rubber knives etc etc. if the defender is armoured then the attacks can be delivered with a lot of power. This will help to develop zanshin.

(SB)     Zanshin is an abstract concept, so what do you look for in your gradings that let you know that your students not only understand the concept, but – as you said – have a ‘strong sense of zanshin’?

(HC)     Well for kyu gradings I look for a rapid and accurate response to an attack in all forms of kumite. In dan gradings we sometimes use the circle drill mentioned above or subject the candidate to unorthodox attacks. How they respond is a useful indicator.

(SB)     One thing for which you are highly recognized is your prolific contribution to the world of Martial Arts literature. Why did you feel a need to make this contribution, and do you feel you achieved your objectives?

(HC)     I am deeply interested in history and I came to understand that many of the myths prevalent in karate were derived from an abysmal understanding of the history and evolution of karate. So I decided to light a candle against the dark!!

Have I achieved my objective? Not really…the same myths are still heard over and over again…but maybe one of two people have been pointed in the right direction

(SB)     Are there any particular historical myths you would like to dispel for our readers or any information that you consistently hear being misinterpreted or misconstrued?

(HC)     The Bodhidharma myth is constantly trotted out by karate writers. There is no evidence that Bodhidharma taught the Shaolin monks any kind of fighting or exercise methods. The two books he is said to have left are 18^th century forgeries and the 18 Lohan Hands cannot possibly be earlier than the 12^th century. Many of these tales were repeated by Terry Dukes/Nagaboshi Tomio in his awful Bodhisattva Warriors, a work which is constantly used as a source by uniformed writers trying to write the history of karate.

(SB)     In most Shotokan classes around the world, many students bring their feet together in musubi-dachi, then go down in seiza and bow, and at the end of the class perform mokuso. Can you please tell us where this tradition originated, and its significance historically?

(HC)     This kind of thing is Japanese in origin, and was not commonly found in Okinawan training. It probably originated in kendo and was applied to karate in the 1920s and 30s. There is film of karate training at Keio University in the 1930s which shows people sitting in seiza. The use of mokuso/meditation is definitely taken from Zen training methods as used by swordsmen.

Anyone interested in this kind of thing should look at Trevor Leggett's Zen and the Ways (1978) and Arthur Braverman's Warrior of Zen: The Diamond-hard Wisdom Mind of Suzuki Shosan (1994).

(SB)     You have studied the history of Martial Arts in great depth. Where do you see karate heading in the future?

(HC)     I think we are due for a renewal of interest in the values and methods of traditional or classical karate, oddly enough prompted in part by the growth of mixed martial arts competition which has pointed out graphically the need for skills at various ranges. However it is important not to confuse real traditional karate with the kind of sporting based methods introduced to the west after WW2. Many people claim to do ‘traditional’ karate when in fact they are training for a form of competition.

(SB)     And who in your opinion, who will be the Masters of the future?

(HC)     Tough question. But I think that many western masters will evolve, teaching a method of karate based in western values.

(SB)     You are well known for your kata applications. How do you adapt Traditional kata to work in Modern situations?

(HC)     Actually it is often the opposite way round!! I usually have to adapt modern kata to traditional situations!! The kata taught by most groups has been modified many times since the 1920s when the first Okinawans taught in Japan, and many of the modifications have been away from practicality and towards sport or aesthetics. Modern situations are no different to the kinds of attacks faced by people in the past. Knives still cut the same way, bottles and chains are used in the same way as wooden clubs or flails, and an aggressive human will often come in swinging. Kata have to be applied according to the classic teaching of riai, or a realistic understanding of the situation. Without that many applications are stupid, and could get you badly hurt.

(SB)     As an exponent of Goju and Shoto, how do the two compare? And what are the major differences in application of the kata?

(HC)     Well there are clearly physical differences in many ways. One very obvious one would be that while the Shotokan kata generally expand and contract on a horizontal plane, Goju tends towards the vertical. The Goju techniques are clearly intended to be used at close range and incorporate a lot more unbalancing and grabbing movements than the modern Shotokan forms. Targets in the Goju kata include a lot of slapping and raking attacks to the eyes and groin meshed with low level stamps and so on to the knees. In application the techniques seldom involve a single decisive movement, but will tend towards a series of techniques aimed at weakening and destabilising an opponent before finishing him. Goju kata clearly exhibit the older Chinese ideas of float/sink/swallow/spit whereas some Shotokan kata have been developed with the visual dimension uppermost, the side kicks in Nijushiho being a very good example, or the exaggerated jumps in kata like Unsu for another.

(SB)     What is your favourite kata, and why?

(HC)     In Shotokan my favourite kata would have to be Chinte because of its strong close range techniques. In Goju it would probably be Seipai because of the way it flows and switches attacks from high to low.

(SB)     As an historian of the Martial Arts you probably have a deep insight into the origins of kata. Can you please tell us in your opinion why you think the shotokan kata we practice today were originally developed? What purpose did they serve? What historical event(s) caused these kata to be formed?

(HC)     The modern Shotokan kata are in the main based on older Shorin Ryu forms which were developed for self defence. If you look at Gichin Funakoshi’s first two books you can see that the kata he shows are little different to a number of modern Shorin Ryu kata and were very similar to the kata shown by Shimpan Gusukuma, Chomo Hanashiro and others.

Modern Shotokan kata are essentially a product of the tournament approach developed in Japan in the 1950s. The aesthetic values and the athletic performance of the kata are a product of modern sports thinking, not the older self defence model. If you look at the way some of the modern kata are ‘applied’ this becomes obvious. The defences to a bo for example taught by many modern instructors and derived from Bassai-sho, Jitte etc etc are just daft.

(SB)     What do you think the purpose is of kata today to the modern karateka?

(HC)     That depends what the modern karateka wants from his/her training. If he/she is interested in sport then the purpose of kata training is to win a medal in a kata tournament; hence the exaggerated postures, dramatic pauses and rapid flurries of techniques designed to create a dynamic appearance. This might also be useful for passing gradings!!

If he/she is interested in self defence then there is a need to back-engineer the kata to something like an older model and practice the techniques in the light of riai, or a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation.

I think that Shorin Ryu teacher Toshihiro Oshiro explained it well when he said “Traditional Okinawan karate is actually a series of circular techniques. The misconception that has led some Japanese styles to use rigid straight-line techniques comes from competition fighting and a lack of understanding by some instructors about how power is generated.

On Okinawa, we learned that there are two forms of martial arts. One is real and teaches the true fighting applications of each move. The other form is false, called meikata (dance), and teaches only the shape of the techniques, hiding the real application within the form.

The level of many karate kata is really much higher than the average person realises. Those throwing, joint-locking, and elbow techniques often look like a punch, but they hide the real meaning. After all, there is much more to effective fighting than just straight punches and blocks, and the originators of karate realised that.”

For those that might be interested I have written a fairly comprehensive article on the history and evolution of kata which should be published in edition eleven of Classical Fighting Arts magazine.

(SB)     Can we just say a huge thank you for this fascinating interview!!!