Dan = experience + knowledge?

[hnic623]

Quick discussion, can you define one's knowledge based on their Dan ranking? if someone has been training in shotokan as a shodan for years, does that mean that a yodan is better? Its a simple question but I am just curious as to what others think.

[nathanso]

can you define one's knowledge based on their Dan ranking?

Since ranks are not comparable not only across different associations but even within a single dojo, making assumptions about "knowledge", physical skill, or fighting ability based on rank can lead to either over- or underestimations of whatever you are hoping to evaluate.

if someone has been training in shotokan as a shodan for years, does that mean that a yodan is better.

No

[FA]

Ranking is much like the sign on the highway that is marked 45 mph for the turn. If your headed towards it in a ultra modern sports machine with racing tires and a tuned suspension you can more than likely take the turn at 65 mph +, yet if your driving a 1950's utility truck maybe 30 mph is safe?

When I first tested for a dan rank in the 70's, 3rd ~ 5th dan was somewhat rare. Making Shodan was a big step, took 5 to 7 years of tough practice, required that you be really proficient is several advance kata and knew the basic Heian kata " very " well.

At our last nights training (Sat 6 ~ 10 PM) a young 17 y.o. visiting our club asked me after class what rank are you ? I answered " you have matched with me, watched me practice kata, what do you think ? " He said 6th or 7th dan , I bowed and said thank you for the promotion son.

IMHO many of todays Shodan would not qualify for 3rd kyu.... but is is all very subjective.

FA

[barryives]

You can only judge the breadth of someone knowledge by 'what' they know rather than the colour they wear. Comparisons (for any reason) between one Karateka and another are pretty much pointless. I'd imagine there will always be higher grades that I am better than and lower grades that are better than me. But do those comparisons either increase or decrease the quality of my Karate? Of course not

[Lyndon_Davies]

I agree with Barry, grade is no measure of experience/knowledge and for that matter neither is the length of time someone's been putting the pyjamas on.

Yes, the "I've been training xxxxty years" people will have lots of time served, but in some (maybe a lot) of the cases it'll be the same year xxxxty times - like a karate based Groundhog Day

There are some "youngsters" out there on the circuit teaching interesting and in depth stuff while some "seniors" have been teaching the same thing (in the same way) for years. Does that mean the "youngster" has greater knowledge and experience than the "senior"? I have no idea, but I know where I'd be going if I wanted to learn something

I stopped looking at grade as an indicator of what someone could teach me a while ago - these days I go on who I know or, who I know recommends.

[hnic623]

I think we should do away with the Dan's. in many cases it pollutes the art itself. people focus more on training hard to reach the next dan level than training hard for themselves. I personally have given up on trying to reach my next rank I enjoy good hard training - building my body, mind, and spirit. I actually find it pretty enjoyable giving me a sense of purpose.

does anyone else share my same sentiment?

[fujicolt]

Ranking is much like the sign on the highway that is marked 45 mph for the turn. If your headed towards it in a ultra modern sports machine with racing tires and a tuned suspension you can more than likely take the turn at 65 mph +, yet if your driving a 1950's utility truck maybe 30 mph is safe?

When I first tested for a dan rank in the 70's, 3rd ~ 5th dan was somewhat rare. Making Shodan was a big step, took 5 to 7 years of tough practice, required that you be really proficient is several advance kata and knew the basic Heian kata " very " well.

At our last nights training (Sat 6 ~ 10 PM) a young 17 y.o. visiting our club asked me after class what rank are you ? I answered " you have matched with me, watched me practice kata, what do you think ? " He said 6th or 7th dan , I bowed and said thank you for the promotion son.

IMHO many of todays Shodan would not qualify for 3rd kyu.... but is is all very subjective.

FA

Nice when your grandson turns up and trains and is nice to Old Pops eh Frank?

sorry I couldn't resist that

[bob63]

someone once said you are three people:

who other people see you to be
who you see yourself to be
and who you truly are

gradings can be taken to satisfy any one of these three persona.

also as I tell people joining my work, don't confuse experience with competence, observe carefully and make your own mind up about a persons worth.

[fujicolt]

I am preparing to write about it for you all BUT i have just spent several dayson a teaching trip and ended up spending a lot of time with a young man whom has just returned from a stint living and training in Japan and he would MARMALISE the vast majority of uk dan grades of any grade that i have seen - BUT he has been out there training with another guy from the same club whom has lived out there for several years and HE is simply extraordinary - really quite astonishing. What grades are they has NOTHING to do with it = fact. And i have to add that they are under a UK Sensei whom has done nothing but encourage them to go and DO IT = respect for him and he can still REV ON!

watch out for the story - but i have only just got home so - some family time and then i'll get on it! - i think you'll all find it VERy interesting

[zanderxl]

"Karate-do HERE *points at head*. Karate-do HERE *points at heart*. Karate-do NEVER here *indicates belt around waist*!"

Nuff said.

[fujicolt]

Unfortunately for you all - this story is so extraordinary it MAY (we are trying) become a documentary - watch this space.

[Robert S]

Rank is irrelevant.
People judge by what you can do.

An 8th dan who hasn't trained for 10 years, may be an 8th dan, but he has stopped his progression. He has stopped training. If he can't move, and lives on rhetoric, and likes to recall 'yesterday', that is what he is. yesterday's grade.

A 1st Dan who trains daily, kicks a.. on a regular basis, and is hungry to learn, is today's grade.

As Frank says, years ago a 3rd dan was a rarity, it was a grade that implied a degree of skill.

Grades nowadays are impossible to adjudicate.

Subjective within the association they are given by.

[dodwatt]

Robert, sorry but I think you're wrong, if someone has to stop training due to a physical disablement doesn't mean that they can't still learn karate and be able to teach it.

If for instance you take anyone from another sport that excels at it (i.e. Andy Murray, tennis), who is his coach, who brings him on and pushes him to his limits, it could be an old guy that can't run the length of the court, but yet it brings out the best in him.

Experience in some cases is more important than physical ability, and I know this from a personal point of view, I'm very lucky to have an excellent instructor that has had a few serious health problems, but yet when he puts on his gi an teaches, it's total karate from days gone bye, yet he always brings something new to our dojo, therefore showing us that, because of his disabilities it doesn't stop him from learning and passing it on. And by the way, if push came to shove, he could mix it if he really needed too.

Karate is something we endeavour to pursue for excellence (never ending), and something we will never achieve, but the path to try and get there is great, so always respect your seniors, and you will always take something away from their teachings

[fujicolt]

Rank is irrelevant.
People judge by what you can do.

An 8th dan who hasn't trained for 10 years, may be an 8th dan, but he has stopped his progression. He has stopped training. If he can't move, and lives on rhetoric, and likes to recall 'yesterday', that is what he is. yesterday's grade.

A 1st Dan who trains daily, kicks a.. on a regular basis, and is hungry to learn, is today's grade.

As Frank says, years ago a 3rd dan was a rarity, it was a grade that implied a degree of skill.

Grades nowadays are impossible to adjudicate.

Subjective within the association they are given by.

Robert, if i may be so bold - you appear to be describing what you fear you may become because you have been impacted by a very serious illness. But as i have said before - your body may be depleted at the moment but your mind clearly isn't - and if combative skills, used with moral and legal considerations, are the primary aim of Karate-do then i can assure you that i have 'won' far more potentially dangerous situations by using my mind than my body - and believe me i have had to use my body often

are you saying that an inability to train and move with the physical abilities we had when we were young 1st dans must remain constant for us to have any credentials/credibility as an older Karateka? If so - i would strongly disagree!

for example - Nakayama Sensei - in his final years was not physically so able but he was renowned as an Instructor who could look at you and know immediately what to help you with - many would state this i am sure.

One of the most excellent and informative courses i ever attended was with Ticky Donovan - he had a very badly injured knee encased in a metal brace and could hardly walk - his teaching was fantastic!

I would sooner train with an instructor who knows what they are on about and teaches me things that in a few minutes can improve things - than one that (may well be very physical) but has me wasting hours on rubbish.

I have always steered clear of Instructors that spend too much time showing you what they can they do rather than teaching YOU how you can improve.

Dave Hazard is extraordinarily physically gifted but he doesn't do exhibitions he TEACHES! and am sure will even when his physical skills diminish.

I can think of many very good instructors whom are not as physical as they once where but are better instructors now.

[Robert S]

My point has little to do with injury, or my own current situation. It is more ... if a person has stopped training, learning, progressing, and is resting on laurels ... the grade does not hod as much water as the numerical value may suggest.

There are many , many , good instructors with serious injuries. There are many good instructors with low grades. There are many with high grades.

The original question was "can you define one's knowledge based on their Dan ranking".

Of course someone with a high grade has been around a while. They should have knowledge. But someone who has never taken grades, but has been around just as long will likely have the same knowledge.

Grade does not equate to knowledge all the time. Many have knowledge that, if they do not train, and keep up to date, may be stale.

Steve, reading these forums who are the people that you tend to laud? Dave Hazard, Dave Hooper et al. Great karate-ka. Would their knowledge be less just because their grade is not as high as the instructor down the street? No. Their knowledge is commensurate to grade.

Richard Heselton has been in Japan for 14 years. He will have huge knowldege, and he is a 4th Dan. So again grade is not commensurate with knowledge - all the time.

I firmly believe that if a person is progressing, then whatever the grade they hold is current.

Perhaps I have not been eloquent or articulate in expressing my view. Let us take a situation where someone has, say a 6th dan. That 6th dan has not been on any course for 10 years. They sit at the head of their domain, They do not allow students out on courses. There is no progression within their own or their student's development. That grade does not equate to knowledge. IMO.