thinking the unthinkable - would you KILL to defend?

[Lloydie]

THe only issue I have with this thread so far is why you called it "UNTHINKABLE" Steve - most folk have "thought" about killing someone on many occasions - "UNDOABLE" or perhaps "UNLIVEABLEWITHAFTERWARDS" might have fitted better.......

This is an interesting point IMHO. Training to "kill" requires peeps to short circuit the "should I - should I not" cognitive bit and just do it. Traditional Military training with weapons is a good example of this, where you are taught to respond physically to a target, this then becomes automatic and (hopefully if you then engage in real live practice) effective enough to save your life.

I doubt that we train to this level of automatic response, therefore there must be some point where we make a decision to engage or not. Once we make a decision to engage, perhaps the question is: do we then carry on flat out to the unthinkable?

[shotokan101]

Sorry Dave - I STILL disagree - perhaps I'm just a pure "psycho" but I regularly "think" about killing people - that's not a problem for me - especially when you put it into the context of some me/myfamily/friend/innocents - it's definitely a "doable/undoable" for me - and I think I know the answer......

...I - perhaps due to my psyche or my training don't think I have a problem with this - in fact I've had to consciously stop myself on at least one occasion - so I don't think that a MA necessarily needs to be "desensitised" as you were discussing....

[Lloydie]

OK Jim, I understand - I think - your perspective, however there is a sh$tload of evidence from the military that strongly suggests that you have to give people a particular "mindset" - perhaps similar to the one you have worked out for yourself - in order to "do the business". In fact, in everyday street situations the person who has visualised and mentally prepared for the attack has a distinct advantage. I was looking at the "instinctual" basis of deadly response, which does take a fair degree of desensitisation to normal everyday contact in order to achieve the "unthinking total response" that the thread alluded to.

Lloydie ( good to be back BTW)

[shotokan101]

Yo Dave ! - glad to see you back - twice as ugly and contentious as ever

I really do understand the viewpoint that your "coming from" - BUT - while I in no way disagree that desensitisation adds a distinct advantage in life or death situations - I don't actually agree that it's particularly pertinent to the actual topic under discussion.

My rational for this is quite simply that normal MA training doesn't cover this type of scenario and never really can.

How one reacts in a scenario like this - assuming it's a defence as opposed to a "revenge" type situation - one can only really guess,

My comments were purely personal - although I'm certain that I'm NOT the only person who has thought "if I could kill that B$stard and not be caught...." or perhaps even - "I don't give a sh!t he's going to regret this......"

...Fortunately thinking and doing (or being ABLE/WILLING to "do") are world apart for most of us.

So In closing M'Lud - YES I think I could DO the "unthinkable" because I CAN think of it and YES I think I could DO it f necessary - partly because I know I COULD have but chose not to - or does that actually mean I "couldn't"

Hmmm....

[fujicolt]

here we go again

Patrick - even if this subject has been discussed "to death" on other threads and/or forums - no need to be so negative - if you don't find the topic interesting then simply don' subscribe to it or post in it.....

not the subject i was rolling my eyes at, just not suprised
to see another thread by an individual who is no doubt
about to tell us how he has 'been there see it done
bought the tshirt and warn us kids how real it is out there on the
streets'. as kensei said 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by
6' thats my thougths also.

what an interesting comment and an absolutely 'theory' that is so far of the mark it is very intetresting.

Patrick - do not know what yer problem is with me but you make assumptions that are very very wrong.

I have had a considerable amount of experience in REAL violent situations BUT have never had to KILL anyone.

I asked cos it still is a very troubling question - no other reason you presumptive - well i won't say the word. Get over yerself Patrick and that prejudicial attitude of yours!

[james luke]

people kill people every day. they dont have any particular mindset or paramilitary training. most of the time the police arrive to find someone standing over the deceased with glazed expression asking " what the f€%&k happened"! It takes no skill, people are killed by accident all the time and the only reason the people on this forum are asking this question is because they are nice people. We are all capable of it and humans are easy to kill. You make your choices and live with the consequences, I for one would kill if I absolutely have to ,as to the real question could i live with it afterwards ? Probably.

[fujicolt]

James - see your point but do the math - the vast majority of people DON'T Kill people and i raised the question because the thought of having to do it actually horrifies me - but being a parent I know i would if i genuinely believed some 'Skank' would hurt them if i did not step in.
to be honest - as they grow - i am actually more scared now of 'not being there' . strange (or maybe not) !

[dodwatt]

Steve, yet again I totally agree, my son is 25 and my daughter is 23, and we worry like hell when they're out on the town, it's a scary place out there and getting worse

[fujicolt]

but we have to balance that belief with letting them have their lives without us stood behind them.

but back to the thread and a change of tack - could you kill simply because someone ordered you to do so - soldiers are doing it daily at the moment - even if they don't agree with the politics that placed them there?

'Wars are started by men too old to fight and die'

[dodwatt]

I think if you are speaking about the military, it's a case of kill or be killed, and if I opted for that profession, yes I would.

Don't get me wrong I don't condone war, but sometimes it's a necessary evil, lets face it we could have been speaking German.

[fujicolt]

which seems to suggest that we can adopt mindsets that say - yes i will kill someone else!

but aren't they all someones son/daughter/boyfriend/brother etc

tis a hard decision is it not?

I oft think - why is more important than would you? but then think of the thinking of the one you must kill - why isn't he going why am i doing something that would make him want to kill me?

[dodwatt]

I totally see your point about the pointless killing of innocent people, but war doesn't discriminate whom it kills.

I know morally it's wrong but it's a fact, the enemy must have the same mindset as ourselves thinking "why am i doing this", but they still do, they have been given orders and orders have to be carried out, and that's it, it's been going on for centuries, and will keep on going for centuries to come, sad

[fujicolt]

I totally see your point about the pointless killing of innocent people, but war doesn't discriminate whom it kills.

I know morally it's wrong but it's a fact, the enemy must have the same mindset as ourselves thinking "why am i doing this", but they still do, they have been given orders and orders have to be carried out, and that's it, it's been going on for centuries, and will keep on going for centuries to come, sad

sadly - i agree but wouldn't it be great if we entered an era in our evolution that meant we went - 'we will not kill and actually do not need to cos we can work problems out without doing that' - a dream now but maybe -
and then we could do karate just as a sport and no reason not to.

[dodwatt]

That would be great Steve, but there will always be someone that wants to dictate, control, rule or conquer, that is one thing that has never evolved between the animal kingdom and the human race.

There will always be someone that wants to dominate

Sad but true

[Lyndon_Davies]

Can I kill? almost certainly.. as James Luke said above, people are very easy to "break". Would I kill if there was a conscious element to it? I don't know, but I suspect not.
I abhor violence and have a real problem with battering someone - to explain, even if I was really angry with you I find it practically impossible to raise a hand to you (and I've had many incidents in the past when I've "lost it").

If I, or mine are threatened - if an aggressive act occurs, I throw the kitchen sink at the aggressor until it all goes away. During that time could I kill someone? - almost certainly - but it would almost definitely be a case of (as has been said) "how the &^*% did that happen?" I even have regrets when I've battered someone who deserved it, so heaven help me if I took a life.

I'd be a cr@p soldier... But there are studies out there that showed that in the past, most soldiers weren't shooting to kill. Psychologically they couldn't bring themselves to do it, so the soldiers' training had to condition them, mainly by "killing" dummies/targets - in a way, convincing them it wasn't a bad thing to do. Even easier these days, when pressing a button on a "video game" can destroy whole cities.

But if my opponent was at my mercy, could I deliver a killing blow.... I really don't think I could. I don't know whether that makes me a good or a bad karateka, or more importantly, a good or a bad human being?