Is this bad etiquette?

[fujicolt]

Does anyone notice that a lot of the full time traditional dojos are struggling to suceed & yet the ones that have multicolored gis & sell all sorts of padding & padded weapons [for crying out loud], have 3 stripes for every belt, 6 gradings or more a year etc.. seem to be attracting more clients, I hear every once in a while some even sweat in these places. Oh dear Gimmicks
Paul B

Paul - as sad as it is JOE PUBLIC likes to think he is getting value for money and thus he is easy to hoodwink - but that does not mean that traditional Dojo cannot adopt sound business principals and develop business and sales plans that WILL draw people in - and give them what they want and what they need.

It really infuriates me when Karateka say - i would be betraying my roots if i adopt a commercial attitude to teaching karate - well you would be betraying the desire for Karate to be taken worldwide and provide benefits to all - if you are sat in an empty dojo with Bills and no one to teach and Mcdojo down the road is packed.

Good business sense is exactly that and if it promotes and sells the product it is working - whether the product is sh*te or not.

OH and Paul - that rant wasn't aimed at you Sorry!

[james luke]

we have overcome this , shall we say , conflict of interests? by setting up class in the local primary school. we liaise very closely with the headmistress who is an avid supporter of the club and recommends parents bring their children to us, especially kids with behavioural issues and is right behind our anti-bullying ethos too. we may not have the facilities of a local leisure centre but we are at the heart of the community and have storage space for mats and pads. we also know we are not going to be ousted or diminished by a business decision.
I know education authorities can be pricey but i personally would recommend it. no dilemma over good manners either.

[fujicolt]

sorry James - have i misunderstood or are you saying Karate should be taught in little church Halls etc and the major stuff should stick to the main sports and physical activity outlets and professional DOJO/Gyms etc?

[kensei]

John,

I personally see it as poaching someone elses "place" and in our city (winnipeg...home of the horrible blue bombers") We have a lot of options for community clubs. I just find it low brow to move into a club that has a Karate club with your club. I can see if you had a spot and it burned down and you needed to land in a spot for a while. But to see the hard work someone else has put into getting the word out about a club in a specific spot, the time in and dedication and loyalty one has shown to the Community club and the hard work they have given to find new students...Show up and try to take advantage of some of that hard work...well that is morally corrupt in my mind. I would think very low of a person that tried to sneek in and steel some students and lime light that was worked for by the other instructor. Other styles are one thing but a second Shotokan club...Yah the guy that showed up last to find a edge in business is a scum bag! But that is just my thinking.

As for the business end of it. Would you rather find a new place and work hard to gain 20 new students a year, put your time into getting 100% of the new students that come in train with you, or show up and limit your growth to say 15 and only a possible 60% return on your time marketing? ( I have not researched the numbers but you get my point). It is a bad business plan to go were others are drawing students/patrons. It would be like opening a McDonalds Next to a Burger king in a food court. They have contracts with the food court/Mall to make sure that does not happen. And perhaps that is the way to go for the Martial arts clubs as well.

[Paul Bedard]

In a way I really don`t know how to comment in a non biased fashion on this, because it kind of hits close to home In our small town of 3000 people the gene pool to draw from is small! I did all the ground breaking to have a martial arts club accepted as a positive contribution to a community of old school ideas that thought I was going to train a bunch of thugs that were going to be looking for fights. I don`t want to go into the reluctance that the school board & recreation committee once had However after many years of work & demos & articles in local newspapers etc.. the acceptance came. Then a guy that trained Kyukushinkai that used to visit me for training [still does at times & brings his students] decided to open a club aimed at the younger crowd thus drawing from the same gene pool that I had softened up. Then a couple years later one of my students who came to me as a blue belt in Goju ryu & stayed with me till shodan, found a guy to train in Goju & the next thing I now he is shodan in Goju & opening a Goju dojo I guess he always prefered Goju because they train with some weapons & he always liked the sai. Now we had 3 dojo in my little town. One going for young kids & the other pushing a softer approach. Well the kyukushin club didn`t survive here & the sensei moved to the next town & they are doing well there, I`m happy for him & we get along well! The guy that was my student, when we see each other of course we are respectful to each other, but, I`m sure that he knows that I feel somewhat confused with the way he went about things. As it is, I have the most experienced karateka in the area & apparently we are classed as the hardest more serious workout! So that is the choice that I have made, if you are willing to sweat, then I will do my best to make it happen & we all are constantly improving!
Now Steve; I have said before that you can disagree or razz me all you like, cause I value your opinion & like you have said, if we all agreed it would not be a debate. I understand that if you are in business you have to find a way to draw people in & then keep them & I have sold equipment to students while thinking what the heck are you going to do with that I just believe in keeping it real & the multicolored social club, IMHO is giving a lot of people false confidence & if some of these people really need to use what they have been taught, they are going to come up short! Gimmicks wont get them home safely
Paul B

[fujicolt]

Mr Bedard - yer numpty - i did say 'have i misunderstood' and tis appear that i did - trust me I understand the probs when trying to change small community mentality

Try Somerset England - Tis like trying to knit fog!

steve H

[Paul Bedard]

Well!! I might be numpy, whatever that is but,` Mr Bedard`is going a bit far don`t you think! like I said Steve, I wasn`t quite sure how to express myself here & I certainly can be quite opinionated, but I take solace in knowing, that I am not alone! I`m sure that some like you who have been around for awhile have stories that make experiences like mine seem minor! This is one of the many things that I like about this site, everyone sharing their opinions & history, certainly helps people like me get a different perspective on things. I had a bad experience with trying to run a dojo as a business, a lot of it my own doing, being a poor administrator> I guess the chip on my shoulder hasn`t totally gone away!
Osu
Paul B

[fujicolt]

OOPS

I'll start again

Paul - I did say 'Have I misunderstood'

'Yer numpty' simply means 'what yer getting upset about i meant no ILL - yer Numpty' meaning no ill intended.

and apart from that I would far sooner wish to be 'a genuinely interested in my students, giving the best possible instruction etc. i could deliver'
than 'a good administrator'

that's a delegation thing aint it yer know - Club secretary - and a committee to make sure all other stuff done - then you simply teach

[Paul Bedard]

Steve, Steve, Steve; Will you quit worrying about hurting my feelings already, your going to ruin a good thing if my wife ever reads this material. She thinks I don`t have any! I truly believe that you are correct on having a committee, complete with an administrator secretary. When I came back [ 5 years ago already] that more or less was a condition at the time. I show up, I teach, I go to the seminars with the masters & research in any other way I can & transfer knowledge, of course I do more than that but my senior student basically handles the finances [ we both sign checks] & she handles most of the paperwork. Any extra requests I have a meeting with as many of my students that will stay for the meeting & make my case & we all decide on what we think we can do. I believe that we are a club, therefore at least the seniors should have the chance to take ownership! This of course takes a lot of stress off me. For example this year the industry that I work in has taken a lot of down time & my annual income has been affected, so I approached the club & as we have the means, it was decided to help with my expenses to train with master Hiroshi Okazaki this past july & my trip to the nationals in Calgary next month. All in all, at this time I wouldn`t have it any other way! When we all have a say then we are all responsible!!
Paul B
P.S. I kind of like the, yer numpty, part!

[fujicolt]

Paul

sounds like a well run club that recognises that knowledge has to be sought and that is rarely a 'free' process. And i am aware that for you guys in Canada you must have to travel (by our norms) extraordinary distances - so that brings in Hotel bills and other expenses - and i have heard that those HUSKY dogs that pull the sleds - eat loads as well

I would never intentionally hurt your feelings but have to say - 'why did you have to ask for expenses?' - surely, you shouldn't have been financing club development outa your own money.

and i totally understand how the decline in being a regular in the Canadian Mounties, as a Horse Groomer and Farrier, declined when they give them cars musta hit you very hard

[Paul Bedard]

Well Steve first let me say thank you on your opinion on how we are trying to run our club
Next you are right about the travelling, minimum 3 hours to the seminars with the masters @ HQ then as they move around the Vancouver area another hour each way on top, usually twice during the seminars. Yes the Huskies need a lot of raw meat on such a journey & of course the more they eat, the more the dreaded Husky Doo Doo
As far as asking to get my expenses re-embursed the club just could not afford it! I have seen where one person made the decisions of monies & am hesitant to put muself in this position, it was different when it was my business, but now under the umbrella of ISKFBC a non profir org., I want to be as diplomatic as possible. And yes I contribute more out of my pocket than most would be comfortable with. As the club grows it is starting to re-emburse me more, but we have a ways to go next. I can`t just not go because the club can`t afford to pay my expenses. The club pays my annual dues & seminar fees, but rooms, gas [petrol], food, loss of wages due to taking extra time off work etc.., are to date my responsibility!
The economy here has been hard hit, but where I work has been fortunate, to so far weather the storm! However we have had about 6 weeks [1 or 2 @ atime] of layoffs [downtime]. In our 1 industry town this has been important!
Cars LUXURY!! We have as many bycicles as a small town in China
Paul B

[fujicolt]

well lets get a group of us over there then - for a meet and greet - do some courses - and help fill up yer club bank account a little then

[Paul Bedard]

Come on over anytime, even if it didn`t fill our coffers, it would be a valued experience! seeing as how we are mentioning meet & greet, when is it nice weather wise in the U. K.. The wife & I have been discussing going over some time as we both have ancestry over in Britain & it would be a nice exerience for us to see some of the U.K.. Her grandparents moved over from Wales, her dad is first generation Canadian [ Lewis] & my moms side come from Scotland in the early 1800s` [McGowan]. We have a holiday planned early 2011 to Mexico, but we are thinking our next holiday would be to the U.K.. Of course I`ll bring my gi & some of you Brits can mop up the floor with me, if you would allow me to train with you!
Osu
Paul B

[dodwatt]

Paul I'm sure you'd be made most welcome, make the trip you will enjoy

[shotokan101]

Come on over anytime, even if it didn`t fill our coffers, it would be a valued experience! seeing as how we are mentioning meet & greet, when is it nice weather wise in the U. K.. The wife & I have been discussing going over some time as we both have ancestry over in Britain & it would be a nice exerience for us to see some of the U.K.. Her grandparents moved over from Wales, her dad is first generation Canadian [ Lewis] & my moms side come from Scotland in the early 1800s` [McGowan]. We have a holiday planned early 2011 to Mexico, but we are thinking our next holiday would be to the U.K.. Of course I`ll bring my gi & some of you Brits can mop up the floor with me, if you would allow me to train with you!
Osu
Paul B

17'th July 13:00-15:00

Jim