How Young is Too Young ?

[kensei]

Kyodo, More so than Karate is a Samurai Art and I have only met one person that does this art. They say that hours and hours go into training to release the arrow and follow through with their mind. I have a bit of an issues with the child shooting an arrow and getting a black belt. That basically means that all of the hard work that has been put into the training and learning form, mentally putting themselves in the art can be boiled down into shooting a few arrows and hitting the target. Kyudo is meditation in martial arts. It is supposed to be one of the more pure arts. And this just illustrates the business accumen of some of the less scrupulous instructors!

I am all for limiting black belts, failing those that dont push themselves to improve and having higher standards than some instructors seem to have....six year old black belts. Please, that shows me the "quality" of the instructors!!!

[Patrick McCarthy]

Oh, and I also just love when a organization reaches out to a more "famous" instructor and gives them a dan rank to serve their own purposes. I have read and seen that Mr. Patrick McCarthy has accepted high dan ranks in Shotokan and a few other arts and has minimum time training with that organization. pure marketing in my mind.

Cite the the Shotokan rank and the organization or is this just another one of your feeble personal attacks to discredit me?

[kensei]

Cite the the Shotokan rank and the organization or is this just another one of your feeble personal attacks to discredit me?

Patrick, I have Never tried to discredit you...Paranoid much? I have seen you on several web sites...I will try and find them if you like, saying that you are now part of the board or a member that has influence, Strange...Like I said I have seen you on a few web sites were they have you listed and they are marketing you. My understanding from talking to a few of the people on web sites is that you are a tallented Okinawan Karate student/instructor and I found it interesting that some people would use you in a shotokan organization. It is not really a poke at you, sorry it might have sounded like it. The "PURE MARKETING IF YOU ASK ME" part was more to point and laugh at them. The group that has you listed as a fourth dan is the Shotokan Karate Jutsu International. I have also seen your pictures with captions while surfing.

Patrick, I have actually a great deal of respect for what you have done with traditional Okinawan Karate in many cases. I just find it funny that a few organizations have selected to use you as a "named associate" or that the "Shotokan" group has used your training and study to "fuse" with thier style. It is all interesting to me because in an interview on The shotokan way you basically say that you dont know how JKA karate works...and that is fine. While I do not agree with or see value in some of what you teach, I respect it and just chalk it up to different ways of thinking, and feel your teaching is beneficial and in no way fake, fraudulent or anything else. See...that is me NOT DISCREDITING YOU! (for the record here is exactly what you said about the JKA and your knowledge of it "Yes, I believe that there are unnecessary boundaries surrounding 3K-style practice, however, to the best of my knowledge this is how JKA-based karate achieves its outcomes." thus admiting a limited knowledge of JKA training..again no issues)

As for the "just another one of your feeble personal attacks to discredit me" part is a bit silly. I dont know you, dont really care about you or what you do. Other than you being an ex-canada resident I have little interest in anything you do or say. Now...again...Paranoid much?? Patrick you seem like a hot head, and prior to an outburst on Karate Underground I actually liked reading your info in books and magazines, even bought one of your books. But I tend to view charactor as being very important to me. You have a solid pedegree that I will say would be with out reproach! But you, like several other well known names, Bill wallace being one and Chuck Norris being another...pretty good company if you ask me...are often sighted as being sources for peoples learning. I found it interesting that styles that dont have roots directly (DIRECTLY) with what you are teaching are stating they learn from you and have used their web sites to "promote" you into their styles. I hope that this satiates your needs and you realize that I was not intentionallty attacking you, but the people that seem to use your name. IN a strange way I am defending you! But I am sure you can do that yourself.

[Patrick McCarthy]

JJ

As you sounded like another guy with a similar name who used to voice his holier-than-thou opinions on the CD I just assumed you were him. My apologies.

FYI, I sit on the technical boards of various credible organizations [Shotokan included] offering historical information, kata application practices and Japanese-related translation services. I do not accept rank from them and or anyone other than my own teacher, under whom I ranked 8th dan.

Please excuse the brevity of my post - in between classes.

Have a nice weekend.

[kensei]

JJ

As you sounded like another guy with a similar name who used to voice his holier-than-thou opinions on the CD I just assumed you were him. My apologies.

FYI, I sit on the technical boards of various credible organizations [Shotokan included] offering historical information, kata application practices and Japanese-related translation services. I do not accept rank from them and or anyone other than my own teacher, under whom I ranked 8th dan.

Please excuse the brevity of my post - in between classes.

Have a nice weekend.

You now interest me Patrick, And I accept your appologies. Now that I am at home with my daughter I am roaming the net looking for info about you and all I can say is DAMN MAN! You got some people that do not like you! I must say, keeping a calm head in all this must be difficult. I dont know who is right and who is wrong but their sure is a bunch of mud being tossed about!

I dont take any of your posts personal, I guess I would be upset if every time I spun around I had a tone of people pointing and yelping! I now understand your sitting on technical boards for historical research ext. and apparently you spent alot of time in Japan and can translate Japanese very well! Who was your teacher, I keep hearing different things and it is very confusing, granted that might be the best weapon your detractors have against you...their ability to muddy the water.

You have a good week end as well. Dont mind my reading around, I find "celeb" types of interest!

[Patrick McCarthy]

You now interest me Patrick, And I accept your appologies. Now that I am at home with my daughter I am roaming the net looking for info about you and all I can say is DAMN MAN! You got some people that do not like you! I must say, keeping a calm head in all this must be difficult. I dont know who is right and who is wrong but their sure is a bunch of mud being tossed about!

I dont take any of your posts personal, I guess I would be upset if every time I spun around I had a tone of people pointing and yelping! I now understand your sitting on technical boards for historical research ext. and apparently you spent alot of time in Japan and can translate Japanese very well! Who was your teacher, I keep hearing different things and it is very confusing, granted that might be the best weapon your detractors have against you...their ability to muddy the water.

You have a good week end as well. Dont mind my reading around, I find "celeb" types of interest!

Celeb? ....

Controversy has always been an excellent source of generating publicity. Of course, along with it comes mixed opinion - I don't tend to play by conventional rules and I've never been shy to let people know what I think

In Japan my principle teachers were Kinjo Hiroshi [Karate], Sugino Yoshio [Swordsmanship] & Takada Nobuhiko [Submission grappling].

Sorry I couldn't get back sooner - big weekend here for my family and I.

Cheers

Patrick

[andyupton]

In this weeks' Wirral Globe :
Wirral schoolgirl (I won't include her name) has become one of the youngest people in the country to acheive her black belt in - yes, you guessed it already - TaeKwonDo.
She is EIGHT years and four months old.
Guess how long she has been training ?
ONE YEAR.
She trains for six hours per week.


What is the general opinion of this ??

[shotokan101]

Pathetic - but no longer surprised - just think of how many new students he'll have by next week

Jim

[guyaku zuki]

in response to the 8y old girl getting a black belt:
in C.W.Nicol sensei's book "moving zen"there's this anecdote:
He enters the jka dojo(he wants to study karate) and says he wants to get a black belt.The japanese instructor goes to a cupboard ,gets a black belt and hands it over to him saying:here's your black belt now go back where you came from".....
says it all to me.
This taekwondo organisation is (like the so called mac dojo's)not only kidding themselves but also deceiving their members.I wonder what happnes when they get in a real life confrontation ???

Sometimes I hear my wife saying this hollywood star has a black belt in karate then I have to keep myself from laughing cos most of the times (and I put the emphasis on "most")they got their black belt with a bag of crisps.(I was first going to say a bag of chips but that might lead to some language misunderstanding hey Steve )

[nathanso]

As I said earlier in this thread, while I would not have kids training at all if I ran my own dojo, I really don't care if clubs or organizations want to give toddlers black belts- it has no impact on what I do. (My own club starts kids pretty young, but I think that noone younger than middle school age has gotten a black belt.)
On the other hand, one could use the incidents talked about in this thread to ask why even have rankings. It's a 20th century invention, so it's too recent to really be traditional. If people need the incentive of differnt colored pieces of cloth or the presumed status of a higher dan to keep training, is the activity worth doing?

[james luke]

As I said earlier in this thread, while I would not have kids training at all if I ran my own dojo, I really don't care if clubs or organizations want to give toddlers black belts- it has no impact on what I do. (My own club starts kids pretty young, but I think that noone younger than middle school age has gotten a black belt.)
On the other hand, one could use the incidents talked about in this thread to ask why even have rankings. It's a 20th century invention, so it's too recent to really be traditional. If people need the incentive of differnt colored pieces of cloth or the presumed status of a higher dan to keep training, is the activity worth doing?

If I limited my students to adults only I would not take enough in fees to cover the hire of the hall ! I see any colour belt as an incentive only to strive for advancement. In our society people ( inc children ) are goal driven and as long as the instructor emphasises that obtaining the belt itself should not be the goal but the knowledge gained to achieve that belt, I see no difference in a child achieving brown belt, green or black, as long as the student has been nurtured and their character given as much attention as their physical skills. I have a young female student who has trained now for around 6 years. She has the makings of an excellent future instructor and trains at least 3 times per week. I have seen her confidence grow and her personality develop and I feel it would be a great injustice to tell her she has to wait until she is 18 to obtain her dan grade. She is more than aware that shodan is the first rung on a long ladder and is prepared for the climb.
Our syllabus includes some continuous assessment and one of the requirements is assisting in the teaching of class. A good instructor will know their student.
In not teaching children we narrow the amount of people who will train in martial arts in the future and deprive society of a great tool for social engagement in our youth. Parents almost always see benefits from their children taking part and view it in a positive light. We also deprive ourselves, as instructors, of the joy of seeing kids develop and grow.

[Tom O'Brien]

My Sensei always felt that no one should be promoted to shodan before the age of 16. At that point the student would have to demonstrate proficiency against adults. Students under the age of 16 would be allowed 'junior' rank. Kids would be promoted as 'junior' kyu or belt colors. He reasoned that there are some exceptional 16 year olds that are mature enough & capable enough to represent the rank of shodan.

Thanks,
Tom

[nathanso]

I think that it depends on what you feel that karate training entails, how strenuous it should be, how serious the sparring and risk of contact should be, etc. So, for example, I think that there should be light contact when a novice is learning basic (5/3/1-step) sparring if a block is missed. I didn't think young children should have any contact at all. So, if I were teaching kids (which I in fact do, since upper belt kids can come to the "adult" classes that I teach), I emphasize that there should be no contact with them. I think that it becomes a sanitized form of karate.
Like I said, I have no problem if others want to teach kids. I don't.