Standard JKA Bog Training

[humanpunchingbag]

I've got to say that nearly everything you contribute knocks our system, you mock our kihon (basic training), our Kumite (sparring) and our Kata, why are you on this forum.

Stolen from another thread and not attributed: the attribution is not important because the essence of the argument is the point, not the comments nor the authors.

The winds of change are constant in karate. At the beginning of the 20th century Itosu and Funakoshi introduced the concept of "group training" (with very distinct contributions by "Sergeant" Yabu Kentsu) and we saw development of line drills marching up and down the floor. Prior to that karate was usually a sort of "one on one" effort. In the 40s and 50s we saw the introduction of "sport karate" and that was fully developed over the next few decades through the wonderful efforts of the JKA (give the men credit where credit really is due). Mr. Nishiyama and his generation also developed the idea of "technical expertise", taking the study of karate into the realm of science (some of it good, some of it not so good). Then along came all the other martial arts to compete for market shares: Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Aikido, American Freestyle, Thai Kick-Boxing and so on. Some of those styles were almost purely technical and almost mystical, while others were so brutal and simple minded that they hardly justified the term "martial art". All of this brought us to where we are now.

Many very senior and outspoken instructors decry and denigrate the standard "JKA Bog Training": kihon done against air in line drills, kata done in repetitions to perfect outward form, kumite done as a game of dangerous tag. The ongoing opinion is that the "Standard JKA Bog Training" is great for form, useless for fighting. I would like to propose another approach: the point of standard training should be perfection of form in application. Is this an obvious statement? Not to many people and I am not sure that anyone has thought much about how that would work out. Obviously we would need to train with resistance frequently to satisfy the nay-sayers, but we would have to remain focused on the fundamental perfection of form that typifies JKA style training. How can one split the difference? Look at a simple class for oy-tsuki.

Train ten minutes against air, drilling the detail, trying to generate the power of the punch from the body movement rather than the arms ("from the floor"). Progress from slow speed to full speed with kiai

Train ten minutes using the "horse in harness" method: one partner hooks his belt around the waist of the other and provides appropriate resistance as the student steps forward. The net effect is to take the emphasis off the upper body and place it down onto the legs. Greater preassure will emphasize stance, transition and drive.

Train fifteen minutes as partners on standard kihon gohon kumite: one partner is learning to punch against a target, the other is catching the time for his blocks. Takoshuku University uses Gohon kumite to warm up, all done at full speed and with real intent to hit. Visitors to that program freely admit that Gohon kumity is lethal the way those lads do it an not for the faint of heart. If you want you could introduce the idea of broken rhythm here by using a broken count for some of the drilling (as well as many repetitions without count whatsoever) If you want you could train Tai Sabaki as well: have the opponent step off line at various points in the 5 step attack and counter.

Train (ten minutes)against pads using only step-in punch. This is a real test: has anyone ever seriously trained makiwara punching using oy-tsuki only? It feels much different from the standard gyaku-tsuki we are comfortable with and believe me, you need almost perfect distancing to land a technically perfect oy-tsuki against a makiwara with real force.

Train fifteen minutes in free-sparring but one students must use stepping-in punch as part of every attacking combination. They may do anything to set the punch up (including a feint with a lead-hand jab) but they must attempt to use the stepping-in oy-tsuki as part of every combination, with the goal of landing at least one ippon-worthy punch in every match.

So here I am: a one hour karate class training "Standard JKA Bog Training" (BTW: I am not sure what the "bog" means: I think it may be derogatory) of which only one sixth was spent "air" training and the rest was against resistance, a target or an opponent. I did not depart in the least from standard training, every drill is something we likely have all done many times before and all the skills developed likely can be converted to real combat skills.

Complaints?

[bob63]

Train (ten minutes)against pads using only step-in punch. This is a real test: has anyone ever seriously trained makiwara punching using oy-tsuki only? It feels much different from the standard gyaku-tsuki we are comfortable with and believe me, you need almost perfect distancing to land a technically perfect oy-tsuki against a makiwara with real force.

very valid training, hitting fresh air does not remind one of Newton's laws i.e. every action has an equal and opposite reaction, especially with small bones in the hands and wrists.

no complaints with the rest of the content from me either, sorry

[Bob Davis]

Just for clarification, the term is "Bog Standard" (apparently coined as a bastardisation of "Box Standard" from Meccano, as opposed to "Box Deluxe" which has an entirely more colourful interpretation, something to do with a dogs anatomy I believe, which means "the best"), not really that derogatory "bog standard" just means the plain vanilla unembellished standard version.

[RenegadeMonk]

No complaints at all. Although I would've added 10 minutes of focus pad work.

I think the simplicity of re-optimising training towards actual application skill is part of what frustrates some people.

The only other potential issue I can think of is the question of whether a technique like oi-zuki is realistic for practical application (note I am not stating my opinion, just pointing out a potential issue) in terms of the range of the technique and if training it as a striking technique makes the best use of it.

However, as I said, personally I have no complaints.

[kensei]

Some techniques are kind of like "butt kicks" when learning to sprint. They are meant to work the whole body in a special way. I find that the Oi Zuki practice improves my Gyaku Zuki when applied correctly.. The feel of the whole body attack helps when I am just rotating...but that is just me!

[humanpunchingbag]

The only other potential issue I can think of is the question of whether a technique like oi-zuki is realistic for practical application (note I am not stating my opinion, just pointing out a potential issue) in terms of the range of the technique and if training it as a striking technique makes the best use of it.

Ah, the ever interesting point of "Is oi-tsuki realistic?". Depends how you see it and how you use it would be my reply. Four separate points here: two on kumite, one on bunkai and one purely philosophical (and about bunkai).

1. Kumite. Donny, an old friend of mine, could land a stepping in strike and score in kumite about sixty percent of the time. He had three tricks really: a) he always shoved his lead hand in your face with a feint AS he started forward. Certainly he would wait until you were kyo, but that lead hand always ofset you and got you moving back, setting you up. b) his step forward was so smooth that you often did not see his initial stepping action until he was half-way home. The trick is to pull the travelling leg forward with practically no movement on the lead side; the travelling leg is at center-point quickly and only when he started driving in on you did you pick up his body movement. c) he would not commit his hand action until you had already responded to the lead hand feint, drawing your guard up and off line.

2. Kumite. Over on Karate Underground there is an excellent tape of one of the head Japanese Shotokan instructors doing a stepping-in punch that initiates from the travelling hip, throwing the punch literally as you step-in, so the punch is flying as you pass half-way. Used in this way, it becomes a very effective feint, drawing the guard up, opening up your opponent for a gyaku-tsuki as you reach completion of the step. The punch is more of a "nagashi-tsuki" and would be very powerful on impact if you got lucky. I am pretty sure Junior Lefebre used that technique successfully often.

3. Kata: take one possible application of Heian Shodan, first sequence. Attacker is lunging at you with a weapon (blade; stabbing action). You intercept early, lunging into his attack leading with your left leg, past the blade, impacting the attacking arm with your left down block as you do. Trap the arm if possible. Flow through this position, not stopping at the interception (I refuse to call them blocks, sorry). Knife attackers usually use lead hand, lead leg attacks (not always and I certainly would never count on that attack). My "flow-through" on the block, stepping immediately past my attacker, landing with my right hip against his right hip, having effectively stepped across his stance. At this point, in a solid front stance, slam your "oi-tsuki" into his body (throat, face, whatever). The net effect, every time, regardless of how committed your attacker is or how fast he attacks (assuming you have the timing) is your attacker going down hard, you having basically applied a hip throw. OF COURSE TIMING IS PARAMOUNT. If you are slow, late or hesitate, you get stabbed.

4. Philosophical. The oi-tsuki is likely symbolic of ANY attack or any forward projection. A forward weighted stance indicates a projection of some sort: shiho-nage, kote gaeshe or any of the projection throws. Therefor, in kata, the oi-tsuki could represent any attack from a lead hand: a stab, a jab, a lead hand swinging punch. It does not matter. It is merely symbolic. Extending this thought further: in my dojo the dynamics of the stepping in attacks, shifting-in attacks and almost all the kicks are based on similar principles. If I shift or step, I need to lift one leg and let it travel. I do this with core activation and internal lift (involving breathing). If I kick I just lift the leg higher (and do all the other stuff that makes a kick work). Theoretically, a stepping in punch could represent a stepping-in kick: same basic principles, same attack vector,slightly different angle and range.

That final point is very important: properly trained, just doing the standard JKA oi-tsuki is also an opportunity to train many, many other aspects of karate and martial arts in general.
Sometimes karateka are TOO focussed and maintain TOO narrow a view of what they are accomplishing in the dojo.

I personally only have four basic principles of karate that must be trained while doing EVERY action. Perfect application of the four basic principles, apply them to every technique and you are well down the road to karate perfection.

[Tom O'Brien]

Never heard the term 'bog training', but when you have a lot of people it is probably very practical. Oi-zuki or oy-tsuki is a great punch. By using that sliding step you can surprise your opponent, who may think you are to far away to punch. I have seen people get KO'd many times by this punch. You can get a good work-out just doing this punch. 'Lunge punch' properly describes this technique because you definitely use your legs just as when you might do when doing standard lunges.
So here is a funny story. Picture this in your mind's eye. A beginning student wanted to enter kata at the last competition. He only had time to learn taikgyaku shodan. He entered the ring & walked up to the judges to announce his kata, which is OK. But he failed to walk backwards to a give proper distance for completion of the form. His third oi-zuki landed about 3 inches from the official's face. I could not not help from rolling on the floor between the look on his face & look the official gave.

Thanks,
Tom

[humanpunchingbag]

Never heard the term 'bog training', but when you have a lot of people it is probably very practical. Oi-zuki or oy-tsuki is a great punch.

Practical is not always good. Sometimes it is just "fast food" or "conveyor belt" karate: a whole lot of bland.

Oi-zuki, Oy-tsuki: no issue there since the terms we use are Japanese, usually written in at least hiragana,sometimes kanji, so any way we want to write the words should be just fine, as long as we have the phonetics right.

[RenegadeMonk]

Bryce,

Its actually getting slightly unnerving how precisely your thoughts on these subjects mirror my own. I often find posting on KU unnecessary just because you've already expressed my (or as close to) opinion almost to the letter.

[kensei]

The act of "punching air" or "kicing air" has its place. I find sometimes idividuals sway way to far off the original course and end up with a solid "air punching/kicking" only or a "Hit something" only kind of training. Watch the original training films of the JKA or Takashuko university clubs and you will see that they did plenty of "air hitting" along with a clocks LOAD of Makiwara, Bag and pad work..they the Kumite was not exactly "air hitting" was it!

Family Karate classes tend to consist of 20 min. Basics, 20 Min. Kata and 10-15 min Kumite....with NO CONTACT, after a good warm up and cool down. The instructors try to fit as much of the three K's into the hour as they can..and that is the problem! The instructors dont mix it up and add impact training or Bunkai or other aspects of training. I have one hour and I always get to Kumite, but not always Kata. And I encourage more than a game of tag on Kumite! However, only when I have senior facing senior do I push them to actually push the pace of Kumite...and lately it is still a game of patty cake unless I get involved in the line up.

The truth is that most of the "JKA" "AIR TRAINING" is more like "North American" Air training. I have seen the training program that the JKA has and have seen vids of the training...they use Impact training, Air training and tones of other kinds of training, hell they even use Evil Weights...that most instructors say to stay away from because it will "slow you down". Funny how the Japanese can use weights and not get slowed down, but round eyes like me should not even look at them!

[humanpunchingbag]

Kensei:

You face the exact same constraints I do. Only one hour and students seem to believe you should touch base all all three K's every class. And I always feel as if I am neglecting someone if each student does not get some personal attention, especially for kata.

I go the route of "thematic training" where all the drills will work on one subject for a class or for a week of classes. I still look at everything I can, but my selected theme will get pounded home. Near gradings I will back off and take a couple of weeks (or more) make sure everyone has been through the syllabus a few times.

I tend to use kata as a warm-up exercise, slowly building intensity to full speed. Kind of kills two birds with one stone as long as you can convince your students to take it easy until they are fully warmed up.

Air training certainly has its place. Here is a grinding point with me; people who train punches in air one way and train impact punches completely different. Is not the point to convert your "perfect" air technique to application? Grrrrrr!

[RenegadeMonk]

The disconnect between kihon's form, kata's techniques and the execution of kumite has always been the thing that made least sense to me. It is what prompted my me to study and research more deeply than I had been taught.

[Tom O'Brien]

My classes are rarely more than 6 people (my dojo is my converted 2 car garage, no AC, no heat). I am never gonna be rich but I prefer it this way. At least we can have one-on-one more often. Sometimes it is just me & one student (I like this the most). Sometimes it is me, myself & I (that's ok too).

Thanks,
Tom

[humanpunchingbag]

The disconnect between kihon's form, kata's techniques and the execution of kumite has always been the thing that made least sense to me. It is what prompted my me to study and research more deeply than I had been taught.

That is the point: there really should never be any disconnect, otherwise you are just doing martially flavoured calisthenics. We make fun of Tae Bo don't we?

I can accept some disconnect for kata because of the symbolic adaptable nature of kata with regards to application. Air kihon should look exactly the same as impact kihon, kihon and kumite should look alike (ie: a "scoring punch" should be fully extended in full stance versus "whoa, I think I saw a point there somewhere") and maybe, just maybe, we should start thinking about how we could make kumite more street worthy without getting people hurt or killed.

Hey, here is a question for discussion: if you wanted to have a "bunkai tournament", how would you set it up and how would you judge the quality of the bunkai? I am pretty sure I could frame a structure that would be worthwhile, but I believe is would be pathetically boring to watch.

[fujicolt]

Ok - I'll be the contraversial one - Humanpunchingbag and Renegademink!

gentlemen - whilst i have read your long comments with great interest - where have you been for several decades? you merely bring up (in your own way) points made LONG ago and addressed by many Shotokan Karateka within their training regimes. there is ample evidence of this not only outside but within the JKA.

yer need to get out more lads and have a look around! what you are suggesting should happen IS and has been for a long time in many dojo. Yes - i would totally agree IT does need to become more involved in the learning and Grading processes but come on please stop telling us 'what we should be doing' when many have for a very long time and PLEASE don't do a word by word analysis of my post and look for ways to avoid what i am saying to you. Get your gi's on and go see it - i can recommend MANY Dojo, and Instructors whom will help you catch up As a matter of fact Dave - I am at one quite near you very soon - your welcome to come along as my Guest - for free!