Dumbing down

[Mal103]

My new big interest is Bunkai and the many interpretations of the application behind each Kata, i've not been training long but am now 1st Kyu, i've learnt the technical moves of 8 kata's (and still perfecting them!) but am now trying to learn the reasons behind them.
I've done a bit of reading on Bunkai, from what i've read then you can have multiple applications for each move of the kata, there is also a feeling by some that they were really dumbed down around 100 odd years ago - this was mainly so they could be taught in schools etc, about the same time they got their names changed to help the Japanese pronounce them (i think). One of the points of view I have read about today suggests that the katas used to contain a lot more gouging, throwing, grappling and what some would consider dirty fighting, what may at first seem like a simple block could be applied in several ways to attack.
I've seen some videos of some Bunkai interpretations and have to say some of them look totally clocks, where the defence is a simple Soto or Uchi block and the attackers stood around waiting for their turn to attack!
Obviously i'm looking out for a better source of learning bunkai and may be way off the mark, i'm just going on what i've read and seen so far. I should imagine if I lived in Okinawa under threat of attack and the ban of using weapons then I would use any self defence tactic available, some tactics would also be difficult to teach if dangerous.

[Grunners4]

Hey Malcolm, try Iain Abernethy ( http://www.iainabernethy.com) - he is a Wado Ryu guy but looks at different variations of kata, also he takes his distancing from a lot closer - so quite a bit more close-quarter.Also Vince Morris' Kissaki-kai.
What is important is to find applications that WORK FOR YOU, in a pressured situation. Very often simple (and dirty!) is best - why have a 12 move combo when one will suffice - this isn't Tekken!
Go out explore

[RenegadeMonk]

I object to that comment!

Tekken was one of the best fighting game series of all time and though many of the moves were visually impressive much of the timing and tactics of real fighting were transferable.

That other stuff you mentioned about Abernethy and Morris is spot on though. When I started looking into bunkai such resources didn't exist. I've come up with my own views on Bunkai, but by my estimation Abernethy and Morris are the only Karateka publicly doing anything worthwhile.

Regarding the historical stuff, all I can say is don't believe the hype. Shotokan was changed in a number of ways, but none of them are anything to do with the technical content or application of the art. Itosu and Funakoshi made alterations that made teaching to groups easier and much was not passed on for a variety of social cultural and historical reasons. But very very very few karateka can honestly say their ryu or line of teachers taught any different historically. Also most of what was supposed to have been changed is actually the oldest version on record. The other Shorin ryu styles are all founded by people junior to Funakoshi and represent more modern ideas and amalgamations of styles. While the Japanese changed the emphasis of Shotokan to sport from self defence, and consequently made alterations based on aesthetic, many of their technical changes are still an improvement on the unscientific chinese methods used in other ryu.

Karate kata were different from master to master and everyone was fine with this until karate went to Japan. The dumbing down idea is just snobbish nonesense with no true historical basis.

[Mal103]

I did mention I may be way off the mark.....

I think its a natural quest to go back in time to a certain era and say "that's traditional/real/original etc", but it might also seem daft to think that so many people have worked long and hard to improve Karate over the years without it actually improving.

I spoke on this topic with my Sensei tonight and he warned me not to go too far too soon, once you've learnt the basics of each Kata/Kihon/Kumite then you can think about adapting them to suit the situation or the potential of the next move. He also agreed that the application can be vast for each scenario, so what at first may look like a block + attack could include a throw etc.
We also agreed that some of the "material" on the internet was potentially a bit dodgy..... i've just seen one kata (Bassai Dai) and it looked more like knocking on the Fortress door and performing Ballet

I think that it might have been Abertheny's website where I got some of the ideas to prompt the original post, i've definitely got lots more to learn but will have to be careful where I find it.

[RenegadeMonk]

The key with application is not to look at lots, but to look at a few. Then get off your behind and drill them with a partner, working against more freedom of response at each stage so that your applications go from interesting intellectual talking points to being the source of functional fighting skills. This should be the kumite that accompanies the kata, although there is a case for leaving this kind of training until you know a good number of kata superficialy.

[FJRGerry]

Thanks for your post, I was considering posting a similar topic myself. I recently discovered Ian Abernethy via this site and have been reading his articles and watching his Youtube videos. I've been so impressed with his kata interpretations that I've ordered his books from his site (3 for the price of 2 right now) and will be starting with Bunkai Jutsu this weekend. I also ordered Karate's Grappling Methods and Arm Locks For All Styles.

[RenegadeMonk]

Also seek out Patrick McCarthy sensei and his Koryu Uchinadi system.

[Mal103]

Thanks for your post, I was considering posting a similar topic myself.

I guessed that if I was thinking it then others were too, sometimes its best to say what you think and maybe take some correcting....
Looking back since I posted this then I think I need to be patient and keep learning. I will certainly be looking into Iain's stuff and others, it proves to me that Karate will keep developing as you learn and you will never learn everything.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.