Sensei Richard Amos

[kanku]

[

Since this is clearly an instructional video, one can't make a determination that this is how Sensei Amos will kumite when facing an opponent. If you want to see him apply his kumite skills, then view his tournament footage, or train with him.

I don't agree , how you perform your basics would give a pretty good idea of the depth of your karate knowledge .

there are people who were born with a naturally strong spirit and hence be able to fair well in a fight but that is a different story .

I had seen this thread a while back but decided not to comment but since you brought it up again I must say I am not impressed by this video .

I refer to your father's comments in one of his interviews (probably in shotokan karate magazine ) where he mentioned he can have a pretty good idea of karatekas level of karate by just watching them perform Hian shodan .

[kylefunakoshi]

[

Since this is clearly an instructional video, one can't make a determination that this is how Sensei Amos will kumite when facing an opponent. If you want to see him apply his kumite skills, then view his tournament footage, or train with him.

I don't agree , how you perform your basics would give a pretty good idea of the depth of your karate knowledge .

there are people who were born with a naturally strong spirit and hence be able to fair well in a fight but that is a different story .

I had seen this thread a while back but decided not to comment but since you brought it up again I must say I am not impressed by this video .

I refer to your father's comments in one of his interviews (probably in shotokan karate magazine ) where he mentioned he can have a pretty good idea of karatekas level of karate by just watching them perform Hian shodan .

Kanku,

I understand what you're saying in relating one's basics as a general indicator to their overall skill. However, my point was aimed at the comments regarding the distancing for the Gohon Kumite. One made a comment that the distancing was too far for the gohon kumite. My point is Gohon Kumite is under controlled circumstances and can't be perceived as one's knowledge of karate or any relation to kumite skill, since Jyu kumite is unrehearsed.

[kanku]

[

.

Kanku,

I understand what you're saying in relating one's basics as a general indicator to their overall skill. However, my point was aimed at the comments regarding the distancing for the Gohon Kumite. One made a comment that the distancing was too far for the gohon kumite. My point is Gohon Kumite is under controlled circumstances and can't be perceived as one's knowledge of karate or any relation to kumite skill, since Jyu kumite is unrehearsed.

I think the comment made about gohon kumite's distancing in this video was right , they are too far apart and hence the attacker is not going to reach with his punch , so both the attacker and the defender will not gain anything . if we are doing gohon or sambon or ippon kumite and I am the attacker I will do my best to hit you with my punch (within thee frame work of the drill) ,so you can practice your blocking and I can practice my attacking techniques . these fundamental techniques (drills ) will help both of us in later stages of our karate .

otherwise a false sense of security will develop ,defender thinking his blocks are good and in an unfortunate situation outside the safety of dojo he may find out the hard way that his skills may not be what he thought it would be .becuase outside on the pavement they are not going to be as nice as my willing partner in the dojo to go easy on me .

like the old saying you have to be cruel to be kind ,what I saw in that gohon kumite video was opposite that ,there was nothing there to block ...

[kylefunakoshi]

Kanku,

I agree with the elevation of Gohon Kumite to make it realistic. However, first things first ~ learn it under controlled circumstances, then apply speed,power, timing, and penetration. We have not seen the whole video. Have you seen the whole video in its entirety, that may possibly show the Gohon Kumite in a more aggressive setting? Again, we can't make blanket statements by merely viewing intro clips.

KF

[shotokan101]

Kanku,

I agree with the elevation of Gohon Kumite to make it realistic. However, first things first ~ learn it under controlled circumstances, then apply speed,power, timing, and penetration. We have not seen the whole video. Have you seen the whole video in its entirety, that may possibly show the Gohon Kumite in a more aggressive setting? Again, we can't make blanket statements by merely viewing intro clips.

KF

Yeah - of course - and if it's not then it might be on the next volume he releases......

JIm

[kanku]

Kanku,

I agree with the elevation of Gohon Kumite to make it realistic. However, first things first ~ learn it under controlled circumstances, then apply speed,power, timing, and penetration. We have not seen the whole video. Have you seen the whole video in its entirety, that may possibly show the Gohon Kumite in a more aggressive setting? Again, we can't make blanket statements by merely viewing intro clips.

KF

Kyle,

when you say first things first isn't correct distancing a vital part of the whole thing ,even from the first day ? if the attacker's punch is never going to reach then what is the point of the whole exercise ? why even block if its not going to hit you .

speed ,power and timing is all relative to the student's ability and level but to demonstrate incorrect distance and procedure from as you say first things first then one would built on sloppy foundation .

[dodwatt]

Sorry but I have got to agree with Kanku, there is no point teaching any form of kumite at an unrealistic distance, if the attack is out of range why bother blocking.I would also suggest that to teach in such a way is dangerous because you are giving students a false sense of skill.
Kihon (and all other) kumite should be taught properly from day one or the training is invalid. Plus it is hard to change when bad habits have set in as sports science has confirmed.

As a point of interest - our Instructor was here last week. He, as usual, gave a fantastic course but then, for the last hour, introduced us to a distancing and control exercise (using nothing more than tennis balls and string) that in our opinion bordered on genius. He emphasized that from the beginning it is vital to learn control and distancing (his are extraordinary, he can again and again throw full power and very fast techniques that 'touch' but do not 'hit).

He explained that control makes you accurate and able at anytime to choose exactly where and how hard you wish to hit and this must be studied from day 1.

He inadvertently demonstrated it because one of my beginner turned up to watch, and when Sensei was going to start the tennis ball control exercises he ask my beginner student - do you have a GI in your car, the answer was yes, so he told him to 'get changed, warm up and join in.'

We had Dan grades and various Kyu grades practicing the exercises and this 'not yet graded' beginner, and within half an hour we could ALL see the value of control and how to get it. The beginner said he had learnt so much.

Our Instructor stated - good control will make your kumite even more realistic and taxing - bad control means no one has developed accuracy and distancing. He urged us to practice control exercises and do ALL kumite as a real fight - prearranged or not!

[shotokan101]

Kanku,

I agree with the elevation of Gohon Kumite to make it realistic. However, first things first ~ learn it under controlled circumstances, then apply speed,power, timing, and penetration. We have not seen the whole video. Have you seen the whole video in its entirety, that may possibly show the Gohon Kumite in a more aggressive setting? Again, we can't make blanket statements by merely viewing intro clips.

KF

Kyle,

when you say first things first isn't correct distancing a vital part of the whole thing ,even from the first day ? if the attacker's punch is never going to reach then what is the point of the whole exercise ? why even block if its not going to hit you .

speed ,power and timing is all relative to the student's ability and level but to demonstrate incorrect distance and procedure from as you say first things first then one would built on sloppy foundation .

Spot on !

From first session - punch to target

JIm

[kylefunakoshi]

Kanku,

I agree with the elevation of Gohon Kumite to make it realistic. However, first things first ~ learn it under controlled circumstances, then apply speed,power, timing, and penetration. We have not seen the whole video. Have you seen the whole video in its entirety, that may possibly show the Gohon Kumite in a more aggressive setting? Again, we can't make blanket statements by merely viewing intro clips.

KF

Kyle,

when you say first things first isn't correct distancing a vital part of the whole thing ,even from the first day ? if the attacker's punch is never going to reach then what is the point of the whole exercise ? why even block if its not going to hit you .

speed ,power and timing is all relative to the student's ability and level but to demonstrate incorrect distance and procedure from as you say first things first then one would built on sloppy foundation .

Spot on !

From first session - punch to target

JIm

When learning something new, whether it be Kihon, Kata, or Kumite, the basic rule to learning it correctly is through controlling your technique. After you learn the premise of control and form, then one can execute the technique to penetrate through one's defense or opening through creation. From day one ~ If you took 2 guys with the same level of natural ability, and taught them with opposite approaches, their techniques would be drastically different. The student taught to relax first and focus on form and control will achieve natural and efficient techniques, versus the guy taught to strike and make contact will have more noticeable and telegraphed techniques, because of incorrect linkage within the body. The first student will usually be the one to attack explosively without telegraphing, which results in optimal speed and power. On the other hand, the latter is usually the student wondering why he/she can never reach their opponent, no matter how hard they try.


KF

[shotokan101]

When learning something new, whether it be Kihon, Kata, or Kumite, the basic rule to learning it correctly is through controlling your technique. After you learn the premise of control and form, then one can execute the technique to penetrate through one's defense or opening through creation. From day one ~ If you took 2 guys with the same level of natural ability, and taught them with opposite approaches, their techniques would be drastically different. The student taught to relax first and focus on form and control will achieve natural and efficient techniques, versus the guy taught to strike and make contact will have more noticeable and telegraphed techniques, because of incorrect linkage within the body. The first student will usually be the one to attack explosively without telegraphing, which results in optimal speed and power. On the other hand, the latter is usually the student wondering why he/she can never reach their opponent, no matter how hard they try.


KF

Sorry Kyle but I strongly disagree - you seem to be forgetting that there's normally a lot of the rest of the beginners syllabus that's entirely devoted to devoloping the correct form for both stepping forward Oi-Tsuki and stepping back Age-Uke that you seem to be referring to and that is IMO where and when what you are talking about should be developed - as well as proper distance stepping to punch to target - well before Sanbon or Gohon-Ippon Kumite is even attempted with a live target.

Jim

[dodwatt]

I totally agree Jim

[kanku]

When learning something new, whether it be Kihon, Kata, or Kumite, the basic rule to learning it correctly is through controlling your technique. After you learn the premise of control and form, then one can execute the technique to penetrate through one's defense or opening through creation. From day one ~ If you took 2 guys with the same level of natural ability, and taught them with opposite approaches, their techniques would be drastically different. The student taught to relax first and focus on form and control will achieve natural and efficient techniques, versus the guy taught to strike and make contact will have more noticeable and telegraphed techniques, because of incorrect linkage within the body. The first student will usually be the one to attack explosively without telegraphing, which results in optimal speed and power. On the other hand, the latter is usually the student wondering why he/she can never reach their opponent, no matter how hard they try.


KF

Sorry Kyle but I strongly disagree - you seem to be forgetting that there's normally a lot of the rest of the beginners syllabus that's entirely devoted to devoloping the correct form for both stepping forward Oi-Tsuki and stepping back Age-Uke that you seem to be referring to and that is IMO where and when what you are talking about should be developed - as well as proper distance stepping to punch to target - well before Sanbon or Gohon-Ippon Kumite is even attempted with a live target.

Jim

Absolutely right Jim ,it is in drills like Gohon kumite that the student should put their skills to practical use , meaning that students should do their best to make their kumite meaningful and with intent .

Gohon kumite 's aim is so clear , I am going to step in with chudan oi-zuki and try and hit you , you know what is coming and you step back and block my punch and counter ( only if your block was successful) , my front foot should land just inside your front foot ,that way my punch would be in range . I will do my best to explode into the technique to hit the target ,your job is to avoid and block and counter this way we both gain something from this exercise .

Karate is a martial art ,end of the day there is a purpose to learn self defence and develop our skills in a steady but meaningful training and get corrected along the way by our instructor . I assume 99% of people buying instructional videos do so to compliment their dojo training and not learning karate entirely from a book or a video tape so the argument that this video is aimed at beginners with little karate skills is not valid IMO .

[kylefunakoshi]

No prob, guys. Debates can be debated, debated, debated...debated...and debated....and debated...and debated, so that's all I have to say. If you're ever in the Northern California area, stop by and then we can compare experiences through action.

KF

[shotokan101]

No prob, guys. Debates can be debated, debated, debated...debated...and debated....and debated...and debated, so that's all I have to say. If you're ever in the Northern California area, stop by and then we can compare experiences through action.

KF

....bit confused here - one of the primary functions of a forum suvh as this is to allow/promote debate on just such things but as soon as a few people post a different viewpoint on the subject under debate - which afetr all is now about the technical aspects of teaching Gohon Kumite and not particularly about how Sensei Amos is demonstrating it in his video - you suddenly back off and in effect say "come over sometime and I'll show you how it's done" ?

Which BTW - even if you could kick the collective asses of any/all who disagree with you wouldn't mean that your view on how Gohon Kumite should be taught was the correct one.

JIm

[kylefunakoshi]

Jim,

Going back to Amos Sensei, the point was to NOT relate his Gohon Kumite with distance preparation applied to Jyu Kumite. Through the comments regarding the Gohon Kumite, the topic drifted, and the point was becoming moot.

We could physically, face-to-face compare Gohon Kumite or Jyu Kumite, to relay the differences. I wasn't implying any brutality would be enforced.

KF