Is karate effective for self defence or just a sport?

[kyusho man]

I want to ask you all what you think of karate in general and your views of how you think it's going? Is it turning into sport only style?
Many instructors from okinawan, japan, USA and Europe feel karate is not what it once was. Mainly because of sport rules etc.
What do you think?

Lee

[fujicolt]

I want to ask you all what you think of karate in general and your views of how you think it's going? Is it turning into sport only style?
Many instructors from okinawan, japan, USA and Europe feel karate is not what it once was. Mainly because of sport rules etc.
What do you think?

Lee

Lee

It is not what it once was but hey - what is?

Taught well - studied and practiced well KARATE IS A DECENT SELF DEFENCE SYSTEM - and i do speak from longterm involvement and reality situations.

there is a wealth of good sources of info out there so all is not yet lost.

Modern Sport Kumite - yes i have my reservations
The desire to 'pass gradings' - yes i have my reservations

Karate as an SD form - no reservations IF taught well and studied practiced correctly!

No absolutes though - you ever tried blocking a bomb

[thin white duke]

Lee

It is not what it once was but hey - what is?

Taught well - studied and practiced well KARATE IS A DECENT SELF DEFENCE SYSTEM - and i do speak from longterm involvement and reality situations.

there is a wealth of good sources of info out there so all is not yet lost.

Modern Sport Kumite - yes i have my reservations
The desire to 'pass gradings' - yes i have my reservations

Karate as an SD form - no reservations IF taught well and studied practiced correctly!

No absolutes though - you ever tried blocking a bomb

A good answer from Steve (I'm fed up with agreeing with him The problem today is getting good instruction, with everyone and his dog deciding that they can earn a few quid out of this. Which may be one of the reasons they are so concerned about gradings, but hey why bother with gradings, just buy a black belt, no ones gonna check.
The big one though is commitment from the student, one 1 hour session a week aint gonna get you anywhere, karate students should be looking at 3 intense sessions a week for a minimum of 90 minutes a session.
With a good teacher and plenty of training, karate is just fine for self defence.

[kyusho man]

Most karate which it done today is at long range (sport distance), and even the bunkai which is practiced and shown in classes are from that distance. Very few instructors real understand what karate/ kata is real for. The training is alway done at sporting distance even with jka instructor whom I have trained with many times. The kata bunkai is in no way practial for self defence and there are many clubs in my area who never train against grabs, throwing techniques, grappling,locks, very close contact (arm distance away) and they never train in stress types of training.The pad work that they do is alway done like sport kumite they never train elbow, low kicks, knees,grappling they partner and hitting the pads etc. This type of training is very important to make karate a effective martial art. The main word for me is martial. There are instructors of course do practice this type of training but mainly to me karate today is sport first and in some cases never effective for self defence. My karate is totally for self defence and my reason for this is people take up martial arts to learn how to protect themselves. Has instructors we have a duty to teach our student techniques which a fast, simple and effective at a real distance not just sport distance.

[SusanW]

kyusho man - I think it's true that a self-defence teacher has a duty to teach students self-defence techniques.

But modern budo arts such as karate-do aren't about self-defence. They're primarily about self-improvement - normally based around a sport-fighting system. As you've pointed out, as a self-defence system JKA style shotokan has too many flaws to be of real practical use.

Don't you think the simple explanation as to why so many Shotokan instructors aren't teaching karate that's good for self-defence is simply because JKA style Shotokan isn't really about self-defence? Pop over to the JKA website and have a look at their syllabus. Tell me what in that tests student's self-defence capability? My syllabus (UKTKF) is almost identical.

There's nothing wrong with JKA style Shotokan. It's superb. It's just not really self-defence. Now if some instructors manage to turn it into self-defence then fine (provided they really have succeeded and aren't just fooling themselves and their students). But those that teach it according to the syllabus (as shuygo or self-improvement based around a sport-fighting system) aren't doing anything wrong. There simply teaching the art as it's supposed to be taught.

In answer to the original question I'd say that in my traditional organisation (UKTKF) it's most definately not a sport only style. But it's not self-defence either. It's self-improvement through hard training, with sport fighting (i.e. stylised fighting to rules) as the focus. The attitude that is fostered is one of "do or die" - to treat every fight as if your life depended on it rather than to think of using the rules to win. But there's a million miles of difference between that (which is just an attitude or mindset) and real fighting or self-defence.

[garrywatters]

The big one though is commitment from the student, one 1 hour session a week aint gonna get you anywhere, karate students should be looking at 3 intense sessions a week for a minimum of 90 minutes a session.

So my training five times a week should just about qualify me (hee hee).

OSS!

Garry

[Bern]

All those years ago when I first started(in the dark ages) I never really cared about training for self-defence purposes, I just enjoyed the rigours of the the style, but you suddenly realize one day that shotokan is a very effect self-defence martial art. I have trained with various instructors, including on occassions Steve Hyland who comes to mind as he is in this discussion, his methods where true basic shotokan but then moving on like your life depended on it from the long stanced shotokan tradition to applied reality of the techniques. I am training with Sensei Aidan Trimble now and he is very exacting in the correct performance of shotokan, but his applied the combat methods take things to another level. If there is any doubt as to how effective shotokan is for self-defence, then a day training with Sensei Hazard should alters perspectives on this.

[SusanW]

If shotokan is effective for self-defence then why on earth would we want to go train with Sensei Hazard to have our perspectives altered? Loads of people do shotokan - and they're taught it by highly respected Shotokan instructors many of whom have graduated from the JKA instructors course. If shotokan was a self-defence system we wouldn't need to seek out 'special people' to see that it works. We'd just need to look around us on courses and in our own clubs and we'd see hoards of self-defence experts (at least amongst the droves of Shotokan black belts). Yet most people seem happy to admit that this is not the case. I'm a Shotokan fourth dan (awarded my fourth dan by Kawasoe). I've never been taught any self-defence and have never been tested on self-defence. Just sparring. The only self-defence I know I've learnt from reading police information leaflets - "bash and dash". If someone attacks you either run, or hit as hard as you can with anything that comes to hand and then run. Of course, karate is likely to make me able to hit harder. But I'm pretty sure that weight training has helped me even more in that respect. Certainly my sprint training and running will have done more to help me with the 'dash' part than karate ever could!

A good self-defence system would work for pretty much all of it's practitioners. Certainly all the experienced ones. The fact that people have to point to one or two instructors as examples of "shotokan for the street" reinfoces my opinion that the art was NEVER supposed to be a self-defence system. I think JKA style shotokan is in a different league from boring old self-defence - it's got so much going for it in its own right. But sure...of course there's a self-defence by-product. A limited one for most people though.

Now that's not to say Shotokan can't be turned into self-defence. But just because something can be evolved into self-defence doesn't mean that it should be. It's generally accepted that most Shotokaners aren't that good at self-defence. I don't think that's because our instructors aren't any good. It's because our instructors are teaching traditional Shotokan the way it's supposed to be taught. Shugyo - self-improvement though hard training. With long range sport style techniques and duelling or sparring as the focus of our training.

[kyusho man]

I have trained with Sensei Hazard hundreds of times and I know that he is awesome at standard jka karate and of course he can fight for real, but most of the karate shown by so many instructor today is just for sport and really is not effective at real fight distance. I attain many courses in many different martial arts Kali, jkd, judo,gracie barra,mma,aikido, silat, arnis just to name a few, and of course karate (any style) and in doing so I get the best training that I can and add the techniques, concepts to my karate. I know sensei Hazard trained with me on the Dan Inosanto course in scotland about three years ago and now teaches some of the knife/empty hand techniques. To me karate is about learning to fight but if you want to train in karate for say fitness or to make yourself a better person it's up to you there is nothing wrong with that. I would suggest if you want to learn karate for real self defence you should look for courses taken by Sensei Vince morris, Sensei Patrick McCarthy, Sensei Rick Clark, BCA instructors Geoff Thompson + Peter Consterdine, Sensei Dennis Martin and Sensei Terry o'neill. These sensei's have adapted their karate to deal with reality. For reality i would also suggest training with Ju jitsu instructor Trevor Roberts. From JKD instructors, Mo Teague, Bob breen, Rick Young, karl Transwell, Erik Paulson, Terry Barnett and of course Guro Dan Inosanto. I have trained with these instructors many time and training with them will change the way you teach and also the way you train.

[SusanW]

I think that's probably fair comment (with regards to seeking out self-defence isntructors if you want self-defence training). I'm personally not interested, but it's what I'd advise others to do.

But you're wrong if you think all that's not self-defence is sport. Look up 'modern budo' if you want to know what traditional Japanese karate is all about. (The kind taught by the likes of Kawasoe). It's got more to offer than either sport or self-defence...a much deeper study.

[Hombre]

I agree with your final paragraph. To be clear though, I believe the karate I have been taught to be an effective self-defence system as well as a whole load of other things too, most of which you have mentioned.

I primarily do not practise karate for SD but that in itself does not alter my view of its effectiveness in SD situations.

The whole mental training aspect is far more important to me and I find it an effective stress reliever, albeit I am not a highly stressed individual - usually!

[kensei]

Having taken a course or two from the Canadian military and a RCMP course on self defense I can tell that if you want to learn how to handle a bad situation....got take up Karate, Dont waste your time and or money on the SD classes that are offered. I also sat and watched a Wendo class about three years ago in a gym I was teaching at and was shocked and horrified at the tripe and clocks they were teaching.

I have been doing Karate since I was six...and I am well pasted my third decade of training, I can tell you that Karate is a Sport, a Self Defense system, a great way to have fun, a good work out, and also a great way to build up some of the aspects of your charactor.

Karate is also a horrible sport, useless for self defense, a weak work out, a dull and boaring activity, and a way to ruin your charactor and create egomaniacs with dreams they own the world.

it depends on your instructor, focus and what you are looking for in Karate.

James

[Kris]

You say you did Self Defence with the Canadian Military and RCMP. What did the Military teach as far as self defence is concerned.

p.s What does RCMP stand for?

[Robert S]

You say you did Self Defence with the Canadian Military and RCMP. What did the Military teach as far as self defence is concerned.

p.s What does RCMP stand for?

gendarme Royale du Canada. Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Although if you are a cop in BC it had a different connotation I can not repeat as it could be deemed offensive. RCMP/GRC - great force - great uniform.

[kensei]

You say you did Self Defence with the Canadian Military and RCMP. What did the Military teach as far as self defence is concerned.

p.s What does RCMP stand for?

The canadian military basically teaches old out of date hand to hand stuff from WWI and WWII I served for a period as a 2nd Lt. in a recon unit and found the training lacked reality.

RCMP stands for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, our Federal police as it were. I have watched self defense classes with them and even helped on one occasion. Many of the guys that go to Regina say that they basically teach arrest techniques and the rest is boxing.

Very out of date and unusable in todays world.

James