Go No Sen vs Sen No Sen

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Go No Sen vs Sen No Sen

Postby Kris » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:33 pm

Can anyone give me a basic description of each of these and how they are different. If possible, fighting footage off Youtube too so I can see these terms in action.

I have had so many people try and explain these things to me in the past, but they have never sunk in.

Kris
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Postby Will » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:12 pm

Go no sen is blocking, then counter punching, like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHYJcTE2gsw


Sen no sen is counter-punching at exactly the same time as the attack comes through. Can't find a video for this (admittedly I looked for about 30 seconds), but if you look at the bottom of this page it has a couple of small definitions of timing http://www.ucc.ie/karate/Terminology.html.

That's how I understand it... :)
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Postby kensei » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:24 pm

Go no Sen is attacking after the first person attacks. this can be as a block counter, a duck and counter or faking the guy out and moving out of range then back in and countering.

It is important to note that Go no Sen is not just waiting to see what the other guy does, it is a drawing in, a fake or making the other guy attack when you want him to. So, fake the guy and draw him into a punch, block it and punch.


Sen no sen is striking as the other guy is getting ready to attack, when the other guy is in the middle of attacking or finding an opening and when the other guy starts to make a move attacking.

simplistic I know, but I think Go no sen need more info.
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Postby fujicolt » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:56 pm

Mmmm....

get in touch with john cheetam the editor of Shotokan Karate Magazine and for a very reasonable fee he will send you a CD containing all past SKM mags - then hit the region about mag 18 thru 30 and you will find my articles and look up my comments on the subject of this thread

Yes a long winded way to do it
yes it may cost you a small amount of money

but - it may be interesting AND it WILL introduce you to SKM :wink: which will give you access to a wealth of info 8)

cos at the moment i do not think some of you are grasping the concepts at the core of this thread :cry: sorry!
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Postby Kris » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:23 pm

kensei wrote:Go no Sen is attacking after the first person attacks. this can be as a block counter, a duck and counter or faking the guy out and moving out of range then back in and countering.

It is important to note that Go no Sen is not just waiting to see what the other guy does, it is a drawing in, a fake or making the other guy attack when you want him to. So, fake the guy and draw him into a punch, block it and punch.


So is Go no Sen more of a strategical method of fighting?
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Postby Ilikedancing » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:29 pm

So what method is used most often with Sport fighters in WKF competition?
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Postby kensei » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:47 pm

Kris wrote:
kensei wrote:Go no Sen is attacking after the first person attacks. this can be as a block counter, a duck and counter or faking the guy out and moving out of range then back in and countering.

It is important to note that Go no Sen is not just waiting to see what the other guy does, it is a drawing in, a fake or making the other guy attack when you want him to. So, fake the guy and draw him into a punch, block it and punch.


So is Go no Sen more of a strategical method of fighting?


It is. far to many students see go no sen as counter fighting only with the intent of reacting to the situation as it opens up to you. That is not the whole truth. Go no Sen should still be a way of trying to dictated the pace and what the partner does in his attack so you can "set him up" for things.

I always have a hard time writing about these things. I would much rather teach them were I can demonstrate and show things.
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Postby Garry » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:13 pm

kensei wrote:
Kris wrote:
kensei wrote:Go no Sen is attacking after the first person attacks. this can be as a block counter, a duck and counter or faking the guy out and moving out of range then back in and countering.

It is important to note that Go no Sen is not just waiting to see what the other guy does, it is a drawing in, a fake or making the other guy attack when you want him to. So, fake the guy and draw him into a punch, block it and punch.


So is Go no Sen more of a strategical method of fighting?


It is. far to many students see go no sen as counter fighting only with the intent of reacting to the situation as it opens up to you. That is not the whole truth. Go no Sen should still be a way of trying to dictated the pace and what the partner does in his attack so you can "set him up" for things.

I always have a hard time writing about these things. I would much rather teach them were I can demonstrate and show things.


I think a lot of people see them as two opposite theories/tacticts, whereas in fact I think that they are just points on a tactical scale that has a lot of "greyness" in it. I think it would be understood a lot better if instructors stopped using the two terms, as it may make it seem as if there are only two strict options.
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Postby kensei » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:54 pm

Garry wrote:I think a lot of people see them as two opposite theories/tacticts, whereas in fact I think that they are just points on a tactical scale that has a lot of "greyness" in it. I think it would be understood a lot better if instructors stopped using the two terms, as it may make it seem as if there are only two strict options.


Could not agree more. In my travels I have seen terms used for many ideas and tactics. Sen no sen, Go no sen, Sen sen no sen, Tai no sen ext and so on.

Personally I think that JKD uses the best terms. they are in english and they pretty much sum up what we already know and do with out any Japanese terms confusing us.

Lee trained with Kanazawa for some time and said that Shotokans tactics were very advanced! he just did not like the Japanese terms
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Postby Shaun » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:24 pm

Hi Kris,

In our interview that we have done with Stan Schmidt, I have asked him a question about this. I will post a link here when it goe sup on the site, but do watch out for it on the main site also.

All the best,
Shaun
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Postby Kris » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:11 pm

Shaun wrote:Hi Kris,

In our interview that we have done with Stan Schmidt, I have asked him a question about this. I will post a link here when it goe sup on the site, but do watch out for it on the main site also.

All the best,
Shaun


Hi Shaun,

Do you have any idea when we'll be able to read it?
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Postby Shaun » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 pm

Hello Kris,

The interview with Sensei Schmidt is complete and ready to go up on the site. This interview we are pleased to say is a two parter, and I believe the content, in reference to this thread, is contained in the second part of the interview.

I will have a look in our Diary and let you know the exact dates both will be placed up on the site.

Best Wishes,
Shaun
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