Is karate effective for self defence or just a sport?

[shotokan101]

Yes
Yes
Yes

.....

[shotokan101]

Lapel grab - opponent using L hand, teeing up for the big R haymaker
Double lapel grab - teeing up for the headbutt/control of balance
Throat grab - controlling balance and forcing on the defensive, before a range of potential assaults

Opening of Bassai Dai

Heian Yondan - Kakiwaki-Uke

Ending of Nijushiho

[Lloydie]

Lapel grab - opponent using L hand, teeing up for the big R haymaker
Double lapel grab - teeing up for the headbutt/control of balance
Throat grab - controlling balance and forcing on the defensive, before a range of potential assaults

Opening of Bassai Dai

Heian Yondan - Kakiwaki-Uke

Ending of Nijushiho

OK Jim - I see those and agree, but effective SD demands that we continue the defense until the attacker is no longer in a position to mount a further assault? I therefore think that we need a bit more "continuation" that we may not always be training for in standard karate. Don't get me wrong - I do agree that there is sufficient in the syllabus to deal with these attacks, I however, find myself with moments of hesitation between moves that maybe some cross-training would iron out.

makes sense?

anyway - I'm off to bed now

Lloydie

[shotokan101]

Dave - yes I agree that the "defence" needs to continue till the threat is is neutralised - but I would contend that continuation of the three sequences I mentioned are pretty much straight out of the Kata - with possible stance adjustments and kick modifications etc. to cater for the environs/space available in the attack area - none of them need a great deal of space.

...or do I need to outline possible continuations/neutralisations ?

Jim

[Lloydie]

I reckon we are pretty much in agreement then Jim, it just that arm bars, joint locks, sweeps, throws etc often do not figure in the average karate-ka thinking IMHO. Therefore the need to cross-train.

Of course, the nasty bar-stewards already have it in their minds

now I really am going to bed

Lloydie

[shotokan101]

I keep forgeting how old you are Dave - sorry for keeping you up so late - please pass on my apologies to your nursing staff

I might "just" agree with you about the "average" Karateka - but my view is that those "average" Karateka probably wouldn't benefit from the cross training - it won't IMO install the creative thinking required.... and if they had that creativity (or at least inquisitiveness) then they might not need the cross training....

Jim

[Lloydie]

I keep forgeting how old you are Dave - sorry for keeping you up so late - please pass on my apologies to your nursing staff

I might "just" agree with you about the "average" Karateka - but my view is that those "average" Karateka probably wouldn't benefit from the cross training - it won't IMO install the creative thinking required.... and if they had that creativity (or at least inquisitiveness) then they might not need the cross training....

Jim

Yes - I think it is the mental attitude that is crucial in SD, whilst this can be honed by training "realistically" I think it has to "be in the dog" first.

PS Nurse Ratched does not accept your apology for keeping me up so late, and is on her way to ScottieLand to sort you out....she was last seen pulling on a rubber glove

Lloydie (sipping on his Ovaltine)

[shotokan101]

Hmmmm..... Rubber......

....your medication must be working Dave - because that's a good point about the "realistic training" - i was thinking along similar lines last night/early this morning (after you toddled of to beddy-byes)

...I've though that too much of our Kumite practice is "too Karate" and "artificial" (think Aikido Demos') - and we should practice more against grabs and hooks etc.

Jim

[Lloydie]

ahh yes grabs, most Kyu grades cannot see the utility of Uchi-uke until you look at it as a move against being grabbed.

I agree that most of the defense in Traditional karate is against....traditional karate attacks, not the average common-or-garden street assaults. Yet these assaults were what karate was designed or evolved to be effective against.


Lloydie (on second dose of dried frog pills)

[fujicolt]

Lloydie - thank you for your wise attempt to clarify matters but AS MUCH AS IT MAY UPSET SOME PEOPLE i feel i have to state the following -

I wish to be clear - my oppinion is based upon personal observation/experience and study over several decades and over a very wide personal experience of 'Seeing' how karate is often taught - both here in the UK and abroad
AND experiencing real violence as part of my occupation - it is not a totally theoretical experience and i did spend time and a lot of money exploring expert opinion and theory outside of my original training framework -

due to my financial status back then i literally had to put my self on the line and go out there and face VERY real violence night after night after night. I am 5'7'' tall and at my 'very fittest' only wieghed 12 and a half stone (sorry don't do metric - too old!!) IT WAS A RUDE AWAKENING - GIVEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF MY INSTRUCTORS INPUT TO THAT POINT (sorry but it is true)

Whilst i went through this experience i also wrote about it - so, if you go explore you will find articles of mine in UK magazines over a period of several years about 20 years ago. I was saying then EXACTLY what i am saying now - and it is sad that much has NOT changed =

Karate CAN be an excellent SD system BUT in the vast majority of cases - due to the way it is taught - both in the physical and mental/emotional structure it is falsely advertised as so.

for example go track down the following articles - written by me about twenty years ago -

[b][b]'Close Quarter Karate - the neglected Range[/b][/b]

or

Apprehension and fear - the self enemy

I wrote those articles then and could add so much now but fundamentally they are saying then what i AND OTHERS are still saying now.

and before you start calling me an 'upstart' go and look at the info Steve Cattle, Terry Oniell and Steve Morris where putting out way before i was claiming 'things were wrong'.

there remains a vast amount of Karate (not only Shotokan) that puts itself out there as a SD system and it is VERY lacking. KARATE is not but the teaching often is.

Quite often it is simple - but painful changes - are all that are required but the fact remains that there are still many problems and this is why other groups now laugh at Karate as - 'a fad from the past'

Don't be angry at me about it and label me as offensive. i am merely being realistic - you will not find a more devoted advocate for Karate than me - but it has to be 'Karate with an open mind and a willingness to learn and change' otherwise it may well be a 'fad from the past'

sorry folks!

[Lloydie]

Hi Steve,

Your experience on the door is very pertinent to this debate, and I - for one - would want to know what you a) quickly utilised from karate and b) what you quickly discarded.

Lloydie

[fujicolt]

LLoydie - I didn't discard anything and that's the key - i merely went and found what Karate HAS that i wasn't using - and i am still finding stuff all these years later

Karate has it but it isn't taught enough or at all IMHO

[shotokan101]

LLoydie - I didn't discard anything and that's the key - i merely went and found what Karate HAS that i wasn't using - and i am still finding stuff all these years later

Karate has it but it isn't taught enough or at all IMHO

Ah Steve - glad to see that at last you are agreeing that Karate can be effective for self defence

Jim

[fujicolt]

Jim

why aren't you the first FULL ON Prime Minister of Scotland cos yer very good at 'spinning things' in a manner that are correct but not fully the truth!

for everyone else - go above and read all my posts and then YOU decide what i have said or implied

and don't worry Jim and I are true ENEMIES - oops i meant to imply Friends!

[shotokan101]

Steve - if only you were Scotish then i'd at least be assured of one vote

Jim