Is karate effective for self defence or just a sport?

[fujicolt]

send me the ballot paper and I would gladly tick the box

[growe]

Attended a two day course with Dave Hazard Sensei this weekend covering one-on-one kumite, Enpi kata (with application of course) and conflict against multiple opponents. Throughout the two days I had this thread in mind having followed it for some time i.e. can karate/Shotokan be an effective self-defence system?
At the end of one session (I think Enpi) Sensei made a fantastic point - that all martial arts can be found in Shotokan, you just have to look for them and this is why all the katas were devloped to give you all the different tools required for different situations. Sensei repeatedly made the point that Enpi is a fast flowing kata represented by the swallow's flight which makes it good for the smaller defender against a bigger more powerful opponent - hit and move rather than try to go against their strength which is greater. He compared it to Sochin which suits the situation where you are more powerful than your opponent so so want to build your strength and over power them.
Throughout the sessions it reinforced my belief that Shotokan is an effective self-defence tool if used in the right way. Sensei took us from basic range to kumite range to 'in your face' range still with the same combinations. It was still Shotokan but not with long stances and closed fists, it was Shotokan with stood-up stances and lots of knees, open hand and elbow strikes!
Steve Hyland has made the point many times that karate/Shotokan is effective when taught that way but that it took practical reality situations he found himself in to either refine what he knew or to learn what he needed. For me the course this weekend (as with all the courses I have attended with Sensei Hazard) showed again that it's all there in Shotokan for us (if you want that side of things out of your karate) if you are prepared to look for it or look for the right people to show you.
And if you're just doing karate for fitness and health Sensei said pilates is better!!!!!

[fujicolt]

GR - I am most willing (in fact pleased) to inform you that when i went on my 'exploration' of Karate Dave Hazard was one that i sought out, invited to my Dojo's and then followed around the UK. I shall be eternally greatful to him - even though i got SO MUCH STICK from the hierarchy for consulting him because back then he was considered 'Ronin'

I am so pleased that he now has finally achieved the recognition he deserved (in bucketfuls) even back then.

Would recomend to everyone to go train with him - Brilliant!

[Lyndon_Davies]

I was at the same course (as I try hard to be whenever he's down here) and while I never had any doubts that it was "all there" if you knew where to look (I was lucky with my early instructors) I have to agree that he reinforced that message pretty well!

He does have a very good way of showing you "traditional" karate (low stances, big blocks) and even allowing you to use that against each other before gradually taking it down to close quarters and utilising the same techniques, just "shortened". It enables those people who are too shortsighted to see past the "traditional" practice to understand that it's very effective close up....

Great fun!

[kanku]

Attended a two day course with Dave Hazard Sensei this weekend covering one-on-one kumite, Enpi kata (with application of course) and conflict against multiple opponents. Throughout the two days I had this thread in mind having followed it for some time i.e. can karate/Shotokan be an effective self-defence system?
At the end of one session (I think Enpi) Sensei made a fantastic point - that all martial arts can be found in Shotokan, you just have to look for them and this is why all the katas were devloped to give you all the different tools required for different situations. Sensei repeatedly made the point that Enpi is a fast flowing kata represented by the swallow's flight which makes it good for the smaller defender against a bigger more powerful opponent - hit and move rather than try to go against their strength which is greater. He compared it to Sochin which suits the situation where you are more powerful than your opponent so so want to build your strength and over power them.
Throughout the sessions it reinforced my belief that Shotokan is an effective self-defence tool if used in the right way. Sensei took us from basic range to kumite range to 'in your face' range still with the same combinations. It was still Shotokan but not with long stances and closed fists, it was Shotokan with stood-up stances and lots of knees, open hand and elbow strikes!
Steve Hyland has made the point many times that karate/Shotokan is effective when taught that way but that it took practical reality situations he found himself in to either refine what he knew or to learn what he needed. For me the course this weekend (as with all the courses I have attended with Sensei Hazard) showed again that it's all there in Shotokan for us (if you want that side of things out of your karate) if you are prepared to look for it or look for the right people to show you.
And if you're just doing karate for fitness and health Sensei said pilates is better!!!!!

Thanks for the informative post ,glad you enjoyed your course with sensei Hazard , I feel even more indebted to him after reading your post .

He does make it work very effectively and very real doesn't he ?! anyone with doubts about shotokan would change their mind after .

[Tom O'Brien]

Shotokan is a great style. Anyone proficient in it should be able to defend themselves in a street fight. I like the comparison of Hazard Sensei to the Ronin by Steve. I think being a Ronin or a Maverick can be a good thing. I have always considered myself a Ronin. It's the name of my dojo. I trained at the Samurai Club but when I moved & set up my own dojo I called it the Ronin Martial Arts Club. I was never affiliated with a large organization so I always felt that I had to do much better than my opponent. Being a Ronin has it's good & bad aspects. More good than bad, I suspect - case in point Hazard Sensei. Don't get me wrong. I am not comparing myself with Sensei Hazard. I think he is way over my head. But getting back to the SD aspect of Shotokan - yeah if you do Shotokan & can take a shot & not get disoriented then watch out.

Thanks,
Tom

[rne02]

Shotokan is a great style. Anyone proficient in it should be able to defend themselves in a street fight.

If you havn't read "Watch my Back" by Geoff Thompson I recommend you do so. As a Karate instructor turned nightclub bouncer it contains lots of usefull information about street fight/self defence.

As he rightly points out, all the training in the world is useless unless you can control the 'adrenelin dump' that comes once you know violent confrontation is imminent.

[growe]

The adrenalin dump is a good point. As we went through the course with Sensei and got closer-in he made that very point i.e. if confrontation happens you will get that adrenaline dump and all the associated responses it causes. He made us get as physical as possible with each other and to try and get the mindest with it. As someone who has not really had a major confrontation I find it invaluable to get this kind of advice and training. I'm sure no training can get you prepared for how it really feels but at least by doing this sort of stuff it's not a total shock if it happens.

[Lyndon_Davies]

He made us get as physical as possible with each other and to try and get the mindest with it.

Must admit, that was fun! Admittedly not so much for my student who I was paired up with (he works the doors so he's used to a bit of bumping) as I just clipped him lightly in just the right place and he had to have a "short lie down"

But simply getting people to maintain "in your face eye contact" saw the temperature in the hall go up by about ten degrees!

[fujicolt]

Lyndon - very unfair for you to hit him with the radiator of the wall and thus send steam shoutng around the room - thus creatijng a spa/sauna - you cheat!

[gustavatwork]

Dear Colleagues, I read this conversation only now and unfortunately will give my modest opinion with some delay. I hope you will excuse me for that.

I think that the biggest mistake of nearly all karate-do students is to ask this particular question: Is karate effective for self defence or just a sport? Karate is effective for what you are practicing it.

First of all we should try to ask ourselves: Why/What for I am practicing (planning to start) karate-do?

If we can honestly reply to this question just for ourselves we would probably be able to find a fast reply to the first one.

Of course sensei, dojo etc. matters but first of all we decide if this or that place or style of Budo is of our interest. So, we define what we learn. Even deeper - even inside the same dojo students are learning different things. Each of us comes with his own idea of what the true karate should teach us.

So, this question has million answers. Each of them will be correct coz it applies to a particular person.

[kanku]

First of all we should try to ask ourselves: Why/What for I am practicing (planning to start) karate-do?

If we can honestly reply to this question just for ourselves we would probably be able to find a fast reply to the first one.

Of course sensei, dojo etc. matters but first of all we decide if this or that place or style of Budo is of our interest. So, we define what we learn. Even deeper - even inside the same dojo students are learning different things. Each of us comes with his own idea of what the true karate should teach us.

So, this question has million answers. Each of them will be correct coz it applies to a particular person.

Good point !

[fujicolt]

Each of us comes with his own idea of what the true karate should teach us.

I mean no disrespect but how can you state - with Karate or anything - that you come to Karate it with a knowledge/idea of what it will teach you? I have kinda done this stuff for a while and cannot ever claim i knew or even had an idea of what it would teach me - both personally and in the sense of Instructors giving me info.

and 'if you had never done karate before how would you - as a never done it before person - have an idea of what is true Karate and what is a facsimile of true karate?

I realise that i may be misunderstanding your point - probably am (and i know we all speed type etc) - but if you have an idea of what it would teach you - you have been shown before what that exercise etc. is for and you go there with prior info

I am honestly only trying to get clarity here

[Lyndon_Davies]

Steve, there are two ways of looking at that..... firstly, you started training when little or nothing was known about this karate stuff, so you would have far less preconceptions. Today, with "karate" having a bit part in almost any TV or film show, everyone believes they know what karate is and what its practice can give them.

I came to karate believing it would teach me to defend myself.... I had no idea. Had I known what I would take away from its practice I would have been stunned and amazed (and probably quite sceptical). But even in those days I came with a belief of what I'd get out of it.

The other way is that for most people (perhaps all of us) there needs to be a reason to participate - a "payback" if you like, and if you don't arrive knowing what you expect to get out of it, how can you know when you've got what you came for? To clarify my ramblings (perhaps)... I ride a motorbike, but I find I can't simply "go for a ride".... I have to be going somewhere, even if, when I get there I turn around and go home - there has to be a destination, or I feel I'm drifting.
My karate "destination" was probably so vague as to allow me to keep moving towards it for ever.... thank goodness for that!

[james luke]

I grew up in a fairly rough area and im sure i am not alone in that. My original focus for training was to find an effective self-defence system however all the other aspects and benefits that regular training and practice as a sport were something i always enjoyed. I have always been under the impression that we have received a diluted art. sanitised for teaching to children and the more dangerous techniques played down or removed in favour of sport karate. The same will turn out to be true of the current craze for mma as no matter how fit its practitioners or how effective their techniques, it is only practised as a sport. nothing wrong with that as long it does not purport to be an effective self-defence system,nor can it when it is proscribed by rules.
That aside, I feel when practised at correct distance and without the constraints of sport karate then shotokan IS an effective method and has always worked for me. I have had to cross-train but only in ju-jitsu and aikido and only to put back the techniques taken out by the Japanese from the original Okinawan art.
After passing my shodan ,more years ago than i care to contemplate, it was like being the fastest gun in the west where i lived and if shotokan was not an effective self-defence as well as a martial art i would have been in serious trouble many times.
effectiveness surely depends on attitude, As Barry Mcguigan used to say, its not the dog in the fight , its the fight in the dog!