when opposing forces meet

[shotokan101]

Thanks James - much clearer now

Jim

[dodwatt]

James, I like what you're saying, in reality taking it close is outwith the comfort zone to a lot of attackers, and it cuts down the perimeter of their attack and also their arsenal is limited, especially if they are not a trained fighter

[fujicolt]

Whilst i will accept that my concept of De-ai may be different than yours - i would have to say the thread I originally put out there is going off track

so let's make it simple

How do you teach or study HOW TO USE YOUR ATTACKERS FORCE AGAINST THEM?

[dodwatt]

Steve correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe the simplest way to describe using your attackers force is with the use of ashi-bari, this is because your attacker is totally committed to advancing with an attack using his total body weight, and then you respond with sweeping him, this is when DE-Ai comes into affect, as he hits the floor, we are following up with a counter attack, i.e. as he hits the ground, the impact at the rear is met with an impact from the front, which means that all the force applied is transferred to the attacker, I think

[RenegadeMonk]

De-Ai - as explained to me a very good while ago was about using your best efforts (and this includes timing, positioning, distancing etc to maximise your potential to use your opponents incoming movements to your advantage - yes it means you have to 'dive in' but that dive in IS NOT a blind guess but a calculated decision.

it is the calculations that are vital - so back to my original question - how do you train for this?

This is why I tend to minimise my use of obscure terminology, it tends to breed more confusion than it solves.

Most of what I train in Shotokan is based on my kata studies. The most direct example of what you describe above Hiean Nidan, Taking the first shuto-uke kokutsudachi as shifting backward away from an attacker who is moving forward and punching continuously. By distancing yourself correctly as you evade the first punch, you leave a void into which his next blow falls. As it does you launch your own counter attack meeting the advancing opponent in the middle of his advance. This kamae offers a false front to the opponent which in its self can cause him to throw attacks which are short allowing you to advance into them.

One of the applications of the H2 4 directional shuto uke series also makes use of this principle, as does one of the permutations of Taikyoku shodans applications.

Setting up drills based on an attacker rushing and a defender who has to counter by a) stepping into the space between attacks. b) jamming the rush with a foot before counter punching. c) stopping the opponent in his tracks with a chudan kizami zuki, and d) stopping him in his tracks with gyaku zuki.

At first you set the count of blows (should be around 5 to start) after which students should advance. Then allow them to work on these techniques freely with the aim of applying the counter earlier and earlier in the rush.

I suppose you could use gohon and sanbon kihon kumite, but you'd loose most of the practicality of the exercise by replacing natural a-rhythmic attacks with elongated oizuki's in attack and rigid footwork in defence.

[fujicolt]

Sorry but

Dave stop being so rude and pompous - the Concept of De-ai has it's roots in Kendo and is widely known in many japanese MA . simply put

if your attacker is generating x amount of force in his movement towards you and you time your counter correctly your x amount of force is maximised and thus adds power to your strike. it takes perfect timing.

think of a train (a) hitting another (but stationery) train (B) with X amount of force. the force of A's impact would remain as X

However - If the other train is moving towards A at xx amount of force the impact will be magnified.

I was merely creating discussion about how we all train for this. hope you understand it now - tis old stuff but you woulda had to go to Dojo to see it in action TWO rolling eyes now eh?

[RenegadeMonk]

Steve,

Now you are just arguing with me for the sake of it.

Whilst i will accept that my concept of De-ai may be different than yours - i would have to say the thread I originally put out there is going off track

so let's make it simple

How do you teach or study HOW TO USE YOUR ATTACKERS FORCE AGAINST THEM?

My initial comment related to this; In your own words the use of the terminology lead to thread drift!?!?

After that I explained where I saw the concept originating in my training and then answered your question about how to train to develop it. What is the problem now??? Did you even read my post? Do I really need to put IMO before everything I type?

I actually thought you might be able to just engage in discussion this time as my whole post was on point.

And incidentally, if you think I'm rude and pompous why not use the detailed explanations I've been "demanding" as an opportunity to critique my posting style so I at least know what you are talking about.

[fujicolt]

Dave

if you don't understand my train analogy - I am sorry -
well I simply suggest you find a Dojo that teaches this stuff and go and 'see' it and then experientially practice it.

if you cannot find a dojo i would gladly direct you to one - or alternately i will let you know where and when i am teaching - come along and you would be made MOST welcome.

or alternately - YOU give us a description etc of why you think my interpretation is wrong. would be pleased to read and consider it.

[EMitton]

if you don't understand my train analogy - I am sorry -
well I simply suggest you find a Dojo that teaches this stuff and go and 'see' it and then experientially practice it.

if you cannot find a dojo i would gladly direct you to one - or alternately i will let you know where and when i am teaching - come along and you would be made MOST welcome.

or alternately - YOU give us a description etc of why you think my interpretation is wrong. would be pleased to read and consider it.

Honestly, Dave, and I'm not saying this to start a fight, but you're starting to sound like a broken record. Nearly every active thread right now has you telling Renegade Monk to go find a dojo. I think you've made your point. Could we get back to discussing Shotokan instead of discussing each other?

[RenegadeMonk]

Steve, Eric is right,

re-read my posts on this thread. I haven't questioned your understanding of anything. I understood what you were talking about and I answered the question you posed at the begining of the thread. If your not keen on the training methods I suggested thats cool, but no one is fighting with you here.

[fujicolt]

if you don't understand my train analogy - I am sorry -
well I simply suggest you find a Dojo that teaches this stuff and go and 'see' it and then experientially practice it.

if you cannot find a dojo i would gladly direct you to one - or alternately i will let you know where and when i am teaching - come along and you would be made MOST welcome.

or alternately - YOU give us a description etc of why you think my interpretation is wrong. would be pleased to read and consider it.

Honestly, Dave, and I'm not saying this to start a fight, but you're starting to sound like a broken record. Nearly every active thread right now has you telling Renegade Monk to go find a dojo. I think you've made your point. Could we get back to discussing Shotokan instead of discussing each other?

Eric, in fairness - i think you should have types 'Steve' not 'Dave' and whilst i get your point to an extent you are, with respect, only aware of one half of the situation. I am receiving PM's from Renegademonk continually. They are clearly indicating to me that it would do the chap some good to actually - for a sustained period - go to a (or even a number of) Shotokan Dojo and he may, just may benefit from it....

rather than trashing the material taught and the instructors, trashing people whom post here (whom i doubt he has ever met or trained with.

In fairness, he did ask me to guide him to some Dojo - but then asked me to collude in something i was just not willing to. but i haven't given up on him so both here and on the PM's i am merely offering him help to go have the experiences i suggest with any number of good instructors I could recomend who would make him welcome - just as i would.

Yes I could block him out of being able to PM me but heyho I would sooner try and help.

and finally - if you look closely i have tried to discuss Shotokan Karate with him but it appears my answers are never enough

[RenegadeMonk]

Sigh.

[RenegadeMonk]

Since, in addition to ignoring my on topic posts and posting one sided interpretations of supposedly private conversations Steve has now taken to outright lying:

rather than trashing the material taught and the instructors, trashing people whom post here (whom i doubt he has ever met or trained with.

I will post up my last PM to Fujicolt, it sums up my view on this whole argument and is the last I shall say on the subject.

Steve,

my responses are getting shorter as I see that you are far too set in your ways to be able to even understand what is inappropriate about your behaviour.

As I said, I think you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion. To me being confrontational and opinionated on a discussion forum is fine, it is just a reason for others to challenge views made. It is after all a discussion forum.

Discussing individuals is not appropriate to me (or to the rules of most forums), regardless of Time Served by the posters. This is because good ideas can come from all sources and if an individual feels there is no benefit from discussing something they need not do so. Posting private conversations on a public forum is also not acceptable as, one it undermines any hope of trust, two it derails discussions as it is in no way related to the discussion topic and three it is simply uncalled for.

I make no apology for having strong opinions, I simply challenge others to discuss them openly and not hide from them. They are only words, after all. You claim not to like my approach, but ultimately what you've said is that I claimed things were factual that you think are not. That is the whole essence of a discussion forum. I have an opinion, discuss it and see what happens.

The golden rule of every discussion forum I have visited is discuss the idea not the person making it. Not only did you break that rule, you think it is perfectly acceptable because of who you are. This fundamentally undermines the purpose of forums.

My only request to you has been that you support your own claims, i.e. you explain which points you feel I'm wrong on so that we can discuss them or so I and others can learn from points not yet considered. You refused to do so and consequently I have no reason not to feel my views are incorrect since I have no information to the contrary. It is like me saying "the sky is blue" and you coming along and going, "no it isn't but I'm not going to say why except that your experiences of seeing the sky are not valid" and expecting me to give a damn.

Your whole point in our discourse has been to tell me that I don't have the right to an opinion because, in your opinion, I haven't done enough Shotokan. You don't have the first clue exactly how much training I have or have not done, but you felt it was ok to make the assumption and use that to dismiss me and what I'm saying. No one has the right to deny anyone else's right to an opinion and that is why you are in the wrong.

As you said, dislike what I say, but I have a right to say it.


David

[dodwatt]

Dave, I must agree with Steve here that reading you posts prior to your last one, you can be patronising, and I know you're looking for information and clarification, which you will get if you change your approach and manner of asking and replying of questions.

But one thing that was out of order was calling Steve an out right liar, he wears his heart on his sleeve, calls a spade a spade, and he doesn't mince his words, but a liar NO, and there are more people on this forum that would agree with me, I have known him for over 20 years, and he has a vast knowledge of shotokan karate, and how to apply it.

So as they say in the Dragons Den when it come to you "I'M OUT"

[fujicolt]

LOL

Cheers Dodd, but i have offered to introduce renegade Monk to Dojo, Offered to invite him if i am teaching in his area and attempted to answer his points.

Time to move on eh?