Stances and knee injuries

[Clarence]

Hi folks, I did a bit of Shotokan (to 4th kyu) many, many years ago before moving to Wado Ryu due to relocating. I was fine in Wado until I had a series of accidents resulting in a right knee that is held together with string and gaffer tape. I can just about manage with Wado-style upright stances but I would struggle with the lower Shotokan style stances that I learned. Now that I have moved again my local school is a (fairly well-regarded by all accounts) Shotokan school. I am yearning to get back into the dojo again (and be a white belt for a while) but I am afraid that I will not be able to get into the basic stances. Back in the early 80s there didn't seem to be any compromise on the depth of stances, if it hurt you just had to suck it in or pack up. What I am basically asking is; would most schools allow us crippled crocks to stand a bit more upright in these more enlightened times?

If not, does anyone know a cure for Karate addiction...I have been cold turkey for nearly two years now and it isn't working!

Cheers,

Clarence

[zanderxl]

Hey there.
All I can say is that if the dojo you are looking to attend is any good then they should accomodate your condition. There are always ways around injuries and you should always train in a way that is best for YOU. It would be terrible to be forced into a stance that is going to exacerbate an already serious injury.
In these "enlightened" times there should be no reason why you aren't allowed to adjust your training to suit your unavoidable physical condition. Just as long as the injury is never used as a "crutch" to escape doing something you don't like.
I'm sure that's not the case with you but I've seen it before.
Where I train there are a couple of guys that have had some major surgery and they still train. One guy had hip replacement! Sure, he finds seiza difficult and he'll never kick jodan again but he compensates by having wicked hand techniques. It also never stops him performing kata. Personally I have had some major foot reconstruction which means that my kiba-dachi will never be perfect but my Sensei understands this and has shown me how to compensate.
Basically, if you have a good Sensei and dojo your knee shouldn't be a problem.
As for curing karate addiction...
Impossible!

[fujicolt]

Clarence

first of all the onus is on you! you have - what appears to be a possible chronic injury - or at least an injury unexamined by professionals. so - simples! - go get some quality professional sports injury advice. once armed with that info it will either get better OR you will have to be very honest WITH ANY DOJO and declare it as such.

IF - it is ch4ronic and they say that is irrelevant 'do the stances as told' - GO FIND ANOTHER DOJO! if not and they say 'yeah ok - you have a disability, Welcome - we will help you' - pay the fee and get on with it!

[Clarence]

Thanks for the advice guys. I have had a lot of physio and specialist advice - I know I will need an early knee replacement and that exercise and losing weight will stave off the fateful day. I am dying to get back into the dojo but I also know that I will only be able to progress slowly into a lower stance and my previous Shotokan experience was of "hard" teaching methods where pain seemed to be an integral part of the process. The traditional 3-foot long junzuki (oizuki? must start to re-learn Shotokan terminology) stance is eye-wateringly painful but by shortening it to 2'6" it is manageable. This would have been unthinkable in my previous Shotokan dojo but I accept that my experience may have been atypical. I just don't want to get my hopes up and have to chuck it in again but from what you have said I may be fine.

Cheers.

[zanderxl]

You WILL be fine. There is always a way to accommodate SOME kind of training. We ALL have to adapt our training is some way as our bodies change over time, it's just that nursing an injury can bring on that change prematurely. As long as your spirit and will is still there then your body can be worked around

Just my opinion, of course!

[Lyndon_Davies]

Clarence, depending upon how far back you're taliking about I don't think your experience was untypical. Things were different then and as stated, it's a lot more enlightened these days. IMO even the more "traditional" clubs find comparatively high stances the norm these days.

The most important thing is, there's usually another club just around the corner, so if you're not getting what you want or are being forced to do something that may aggravate your injury, then vote with your feet. A large proportion of the seniors I know have suffered some form of hip or knee problems and are sympathetic to anyone who is prepared to work around their injuries - they still expect a lot from you, just not in areas where you have a physical limitation.

I attended a course on the weekend where Sensei's theme was longevity of training and avoiding practices which caused injury (rather ironic that I was so stiff afterwards I was walking like I actually HAD damaged myself ) so the word is out there. Good luck.

[barryives]

I would echo most of what has been said thus far, but in addition I trained in Wado during the late 80s, then recently (about a year ago now, wow time flies ) returned (to Shotokan) after a long hiatus

I didn't really find the stances that much different, and I found the general feel was more relaxed, but in a good way!

[fhensen]

Clarence,

I had surgery on my knee as well some time ago and always had pain in my right knee. 2 months ago I discovered Zhi Neng Qigong and attended a workshop. The pain in my knee disappeared just after 2 weeks.

Lift Chi up, pour chi down and the wallsquats are the exercises to perform.

Frank

[feelmychi]

Clarence,

I had surgery on my knee as well some time ago and always had pain in my right knee. 2 months ago I discovered Zhi Neng Qigong and attended a workshop. The pain in my knee disappeared just after 2 weeks.

Lift Chi up, pour chi down and the wallsquats are the exercises to perform.

Frank

Hey, it's another believer in chi!

feelmychi

[zanderxl]

Or Ki as the Japanese call it.
Sensei often discusses it.
Fascinating.

[Clarence]

Well I have to admit that I have been doing Tai Chi and Qigong (why they often use two different transliteration systems I do not know!) for a while and that is why I have got back to the point where I can think about Karate again. I can easily do a three or four hour Tai Chi session so I am hoping that a couple of hours of Karate will not be too much of a strain on the old knees. I can fit into my old belts without too much of the writing going into the knot and the white belts I got with my suits originally seem to be a good foot longer than my coloured belts so I suppose I will have to stop making excuses and give it a go.

[zanderxl]

Aye Clarence, as the old Nike advert used to say: "Just do it!"

[fujicolt]

Well I have to admit that I have been doing Tai Chi and Qigong (why they often use two different transliteration systems I do not know!) for a while and that is why I have got back to the point where I can think about Karate again. I can easily do a three or four hour Tai Chi session so I am hoping that a couple of hours of Karate will not be too much of a strain on the old knees. I can fit into my old belts without too much of the writing going into the knot and the white belts I got with my suits originally seem to be a good foot longer than my coloured belts so I suppose I will have to stop making excuses and give it a go.

'show me a man whom has never failed and i will show you a man whom has never tried!'

[Paul Bedard]

Hello Clarence as a fellow knee problem sufferer I can certainly relate to your issues. I`ve had all the medical examinations that can be done & the diagnosis is that my knees are toast. My left will one day be replaced, but as you are most likely aware this is not something that you want to rush into as the life expectancy of knee replacement is about 15 years ( then what?) I can no longer do a proper seiza & my retraction while kicking is lacking. Having said this, karate training is what keeps me going! The specialists are quite impressed with my mobility, considering the condition of my knees, I give karate all the credit for enabling me to have a quality lifestyle. I can`t run or jump, but I can sure power walk! Also I can only kick a heavy bag with my left about 10 times then the pain makes it hard to continue. Sorry, didn`t want to make this about me! Just want to ensure you that I can relate to your issue. My advise would be this; Go as low as you can go in your stances, not as low as the healthy 25 year old beside you. If you study the masters, as they get older their stances get higher. The main point is knee over big toe, not go deep.If you go to deep & can`t move what good is that. In my case my left knee starts grinding & popping enough that others can hear it, so there is no doubt I`m trying, but that`s all she wrote. Can`t push it no more. So as was mentioned, follow medical advise, then get training. If the instructor can`t relate to your issues & work with your limitations, find a real instructor. We can`t let ourselves deteriorate to soon. One man that I sometimes train with, says that karate is the fountain of youth. So keep training my friend & when it hurts, a good kiai can hide a scream. I believe that we must push ourselves & feel it, but when it hurts, back off just a little bit & push some more.
Yours in budo
Paul B

[james luke]

Any of us old-timers out there who do not have dodgy knees?