Standard JKA Bog Training

[RenegadeMonk]

I don't think anyone was dictating what others should do, suggesting solutions to perceived problems would be a better description.

I am very glad that the Shotokan community has for the last "several decades" removed all disconnect between kata kihon and kumite and modified the traditional training methods to be more practical and combat applicable.

However, I have to confess to being quite confused as to why you think I would want to train with you, Steve.

[fujicolt]

Ok - I'll be the contraversial one - Humanpunchingbag and Renegademink!

gentlemen - whilst i have read your long comments with great interest - where have you been for several decades? you merely bring up (in your own way) points made LONG ago and addressed by many Shotokan Karateka within their training regimes. there is ample evidence of this not only outside but within the JKA.

yer need to get out more lads and have a look around! what you are suggesting should happen IS and has been for a long time in many dojo. Yes - i would totally agree IT does need to become more involved in the learning and Grading processes but come on please stop telling us 'what we should be doing' when many have for a very long time and PLEASE don't do a word by word analysis of my post and look for ways to avoid what i am saying to you. Get your gi's on and go see it - i can recommend MANY Dojo, and Instructors whom will help you catch up As a matter of fact Dave - I am at one quite near you very soon - your welcome to come along as my Guest - for free!

Dave - yet again you fail to carefully read what has actually been posted:

please note from my post (above) -

'what you are suggesting should happen IS and has been for a long time in many dojo. Yes - i would totally agree IT does need to become more involved in the learning and Grading processes but come on please stop telling us 'what we should be doing' when many have for a very long time'


and:

'As a matter of fact Dave - I am at one quite near you very soon - your welcome to come along as my Guest - for free!'

Dave - i would be most willing to sit and watch so you don't have to 'train with me' - you can just train with them!

Dave - if it makes you feel easier - i'll even not turn up - i'll just let you know where to go and i'll meet up with them for the usual lovely Curry and a pint or two later

[humanpunchingbag]

Ok - I'll be the contraversial one - Humanpunchingbag and Renegademink!

gentlemen - whilst i have read your long comments with great interest - where have you been for several decades? you merely bring up (in your own way) points made LONG ago and addressed by many Shotokan Karateka within their training regimes. there is ample evidence of this not only outside but within the JKA.

yer need to get out more lads and have a look around! what you are suggesting should happen IS and has been for a long time in many dojo. Yes - i would totally agree IT does need to become more involved in the learning and Grading processes but come on please stop telling us 'what we should be doing' when many have for a very long time and PLEASE don't do a word by word analysis of my post and look for ways to avoid what i am saying to you. Get your gi's on and go see it - i can recommend MANY Dojo, and Instructors whom will help you catch up As a matter of fact Dave - I am at one quite near you very soon - your welcome to come along as my Guest - for free!

Actually Steve, I was not commenting about the training that goes on in Shotokan dojos at all. I know that the Shotokan dojos train this way. That is why I started the thread. It is a counter to the common criticism of Shotokan Karate. I would never dare (or for that matter, really care) to tell people how they should train in their dojo.

I would like to say though that it is not necessarily a bad thing to post training drills and the such: I always am finding drills that other clubs do that I have not seen or thought of. Forums are the perfect place to share this sort of stuff, yet I see very little of it and lots of philosophy,( discussions of ki and the such)

My comment was actually a reaction to the assumption by MANY other styles that the standard JKA style Shotokan dojo spends hours marching in step trying to look oh-so good. I was trying to point out that with absolutely no effort what-so-ever most Shotokan dojos do meet the "requirements" of the stylists who claim we should be spending at least 75% of our time working with partners against resistance. (you and I know at least one well known author and karate instructor who mercilessly batters away at the JKA and Shotokan for its "impractical" training)

I was actually supporting the Shotokan way. BTW: I have been only doing a few seminars a year, so yes I am falling behind a bit, but I am not sure that the Nishiyama-Ryu ITKF is so far behind the times, Steve.

And you an I both know that there are LOTS of JKA style dojos that do just parade around: I trained with one in Vancouver, Canada last year: two continual hours of basic kihon and kata with not one moment of partner training. Not even one round of one-step kumite or any applications training. There are still a few dinasaurs around, believe me.

[kensei]

And you an I both know that there are LOTS of JKA style dojos that do just parade around: I trained with one in Vancouver, Canada last year: two continual hours of basic kihon and kata with not one moment of partner training. Not even one round of one-step kumite or any applications training. There are still a few dinasaurs around, believe me.

I see no value in training endlessly with out applying the things you are doing. Hell even my kids classes have kumite built in and we only do one hour. I have taught classes were we did just Kihon and Kata, but that was to improve Kata and it was one in five were we did not actually do some kumite. And even then we did applications for understanding.

My issue is with Dojos like this that do this kind of stuff, and may very well develop great Kihon with their students...but they could not spar to use the Kihon Waza to save their lives.....or worse yet they throw pretty kicks and punches that land in the air no where near the targets....seen lots of that before.

[feelmychi]

And you an I both know that there are LOTS of JKA style dojos that do just parade around: I trained with one in Vancouver, Canada last year: two continual hours of basic kihon and kata with not one moment of partner training. Not even one round of one-step kumite or any applications training. There are still a few dinasaurs around, believe me.

I see no value in training endlessly with out applying the things you are doing. Hell even my kids classes have kumite built in and we only do one hour. I have taught classes were we did just Kihon and Kata, but that was to improve Kata and it was one in five were we did not actually do some kumite. And even then we did applications for understanding.

My issue is with Dojos like this that do this kind of stuff, and may very well develop great Kihon with their students...but they could not spar to use the Kihon Waza to save their lives.....or worse yet they throw pretty kicks and punches that land in the air no where near the targets....seen lots of that before.

Kinda like this? I know that it's not JKA or Shotokan at all for that matter, but nonetheless... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlnlBVl3Xrg... Skip to 1.20...

If any of those kids try that kinda stuff against a chav with a knife, they're going to find themselves in hospital under life support before they even know it...

feelmychi

[humanpunchingbag]

And you an I both know that there are LOTS of JKA style dojos that do just parade around: I trained with one in Vancouver, Canada last year: two continual hours of basic kihon and kata with not one moment of partner training. Not even one round of one-step kumite or any applications training. There are still a few dinasaurs around, believe me.

I see no value in training endlessly with out applying the things you are doing. Hell even my kids classes have kumite built in and we only do one hour. I have taught classes were we did just Kihon and Kata, but that was to improve Kata and it was one in five were we did not actually do some kumite. And even then we did applications for understanding.

My issue is with Dojos like this that do this kind of stuff, and may very well develop great Kihon with their students...but they could not spar to use the Kihon Waza to save their lives.....or worse yet they throw pretty kicks and punches that land in the air no where near the targets....seen lots of that before.

So you see the point of my comments. I am not slagging Shotokan or suggesting that I know better. I am merely reacting to the general impression of other styles about Shotokan. I was merely pointing out that WE (collectively) likely do train exactly how the purported "experts" suggest.

Having said that, there is still LOTS of dojos that do dance around hitting air endlessly. Believe it or not I have attended many clubs that do not have a makiwara or even an impact bag anywhere in site. In those clubs, if you don't pound on your partner, you are just moving air. And they are all "non-contact" clubs. And this issue is certainly a problem in all styles, not just Shotokan.

Having spent years watching bogus bunkai and silly kihon apps, I can tell you that while many (the majority?) of Shotokan clubs are very real and vital, there remains a few very recalcitrant clubs that play karate two hours , twice weekly.

Kinda like this? I know that it's not JKA or Shotokan at all for that matter, but nonetheless... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlnlBVl3Xrg... Skip to 1.20...

If any of those kids try that kinda stuff against a chav with a knife, they're going to find themselves in hospital under life support before they even know it...

feelmychi

Who taught them ANYTHING about knives? Knife defenses in a kids class is just so inappropriate that it borders on child abuse. "Karate dance" or "play karate"; call it anything you want.

[james luke]

agree about techniques involving knives are inappropriate for kids Bryce but in the current social climate in England with our problems with youth knife crime we would be remiss if we did not include some form of "knife awareness". We talk to our younger students about reasons they may carry knives and the consequences, injuries etc. A sad necessity.

[zanderxl]

Very true James, very true.

[humanpunchingbag]

agree about techniques involving knives are inappropriate for kids Bryce but in the current social climate in England with our problems with youth knife crime we would be remiss if we did not include some form of "knife awareness". We talk to our younger students about reasons they may carry knives and the consequences, injuries etc. A sad necessity.

Actually, I want to take issue with the "current social climate" comment. Knives have always been around. Knives are the reason that gentlemen carried walking sticks into the beginning of the last century.

Britain is not alone in the violence perpetrated with knives. Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada, my town, was the murder capitol of Canada for many years (I believe 4 out of the last 10; we lost one year by a single murder to our sister-city Saskatoon Saskatchewan). The vast majority of the murders with done with an edged weapon.

Sad enough to say that the best reason for a boy to join competitive hockey in Regina is that it is the only way you can guarantee he will not be forcibly recruited by an urban gang (mostly devided on racial lines). The hockey players are usually such a rough and cliqueish bunch that the gangs stay clear of the hockey kids.

Strange thing about knives: I personally carried a knife always throughout my younger years and never thought about it at all. Now I leave the knife at home simply due to the fact that I am afraid it might make me a target.

Still, teaching stupid knife defenses to kids and suggesting some sort of "play" around knife defenses (at that tape clearly shows; those kids are bloody dancing and doing cartwheels) is just nauseating to me.

[kensei]

it would be silly not to include some good self defense in your Karate classes...I mean what is Karate if not a self defense?

However, idiot training like that should be avoided...lest we become ATA components!

[humanpunchingbag]

it would be silly not to include some good self defense in your Karate classes...I mean what is Karate if not a self defense?

However, idiot training like that should be avoided...lest we become ATA components!

And I agree; age appropriate self-defense with appropriate topics. Just look at the silly beggars doing "knife defenses": cartwheels, supposedly heel kicks from a hand-stand, take-downs that would never work. I realize that these are just kids, but some instructor put them up to that garbage. Heck, they were even dancing to music as they did it. What in the world was that guy thinking about? Is there not a real possibility that one of these little tykes might get the idea he could pull that stuff out in the school yard? Worse yet; they are being taught to "play" with knives: why not just turn them loose with sharp scissors and tell them to run around wildly?

[feelmychi]

it would be silly not to include some good self defense in your Karate classes...I mean what is Karate if not a self defense?

However, idiot training like that should be avoided...lest we become ATA components!

And I agree; age appropriate self-defense with appropriate topics. Just look at the silly beggars doing "knife defenses": cartwheels, supposedly heel kicks from a hand-stand, take-downs that would never work. I realize that these are just kids, but some instructor put them up to that garbage. Heck, they were even dancing to music as they did it. What in the world was that guy thinking about? Is there not a real possibility that one of these little tykes might get the idea he could pull that stuff out in the school yard? Worse yet; they are being taught to "play" with knives: why not just turn them loose with sharp scissors and tell them to run around wildly?

On top of that, and this is the absolutely awful thing, some those kids probably now think that they know how to deal with someone with a knife. So in 10 years time when one of them gets approached by some thug with a giant frigging hunting knife and they try some cartwheel-super-jump-kick-thingy... well, we all know what'll happen...

feelmychi

[james luke]

I agree completely with all that's been said so far but with reference to knives always being around? Yes, definitely ,but they were once considered a tool and are now routinely carried for violent purpose and I suppose modern media coverage does make it more topical. However, we all purport to teach some form of martial art or defensive techniques and even if we can make a student stop and think of the consequences of carrying a blade that has to be a good thing. lets not sugar-coat it though. I warn all my students that to face someone with a knife they must understand there is a damn good chance they will get cut, that they cant make the unpredictable predictable and it is a scenario to be avoided at all costs. I personally would call the guy in the clip irresponsible to the extent of criminal behaviour and gymnastics and knives do not mix!

[kensei]

I often have to keep an eye on trends and one that I have seen is the increase in Knife violence in Canada and England. It is all over the media and the police Stats support the increase in Knife violence as being a true issue.

Some kind of training should be instituted in the Dojo, but in a way that lets them know the best way to deal with a knife is fast feet...RUNNING not kicking in a head stand. I once went to a seminar on knife crime and the guy teaching showed how a single guy with a six inch hunting knife could kill three officers in less time than it took them to pull their side arms! Its crazy that some shmuck puts out a video teaching kids to flip kick at a knife and save themselves when a SWAT trained instructor says run and dont even stop to pull your gun! A guy with a knife who is 6-8 feet away has a better chance of killing you with his knife if he really wants to than a armed police officer! What chance does a 12 year old TKD student have who is taught to stand on their hands and flip a foot at the attacker?

this poor idiot seems like he needs to be sued a few times.

[zanderxl]

Yes. Always, ALWAYS RUN if you are able and there is absolutely no other choice but confrontation. But even then, unless you hope to have the attacker drop the knife from laughter, avoid doing handstands!