Hikite mandatory at lower levels ....

[Robert S]

I have stolen the strap line from Simo K as a point of educational discussion. I think it is a great phrase, and am seriously interested in hearing what others, particular those of Kase ha can illuminate.

" Hikite mandatory at lower levels but prohibited at higher " Taiji Kase

Keeping in mind that most teachers in Shotokan ram hikite and hanmi into students,it would be interesting to see at what level Kase sensei saw fit to apply this adage.

There is little doubt his semete was awesome. There is little doubt he still used a degree of hikite, or body action.

But the adage itself goes against the grain of what students get told. This in itself is where I see the learning point.

I would like to keep the thread to the hikite, its use, and the time when it no longer becomes necessary; as opposed to diverging.

Anyone with ideas?

[Robert S]

Ok,

Clearly at novice and intermediate levels the hikite side has equal if not importance than the impact side. Most Shoto dojo will bash hikite into the understanding of the student, repeatedly, until the hikite is strong, positive, controlled, and natural. If this is a correct summation, where do you see it as being 'left out' of the equation, or as Kase sensei puts it 'prohibited'?

When there is sufficient snap and retraction in the semete to make the technique a whip, as opposed to a drive? The hikite not needed to create the action. Or the hikite is part of the snap, and not the opposite hand.
When for example using deai, say with a nagashi uke as a block and simultaneous tsuki with the other hand (but then is the nagashi a hikite in itself?
When using hente waza?

e.g when the striking hand is a free and snappy self contained agent, as opposed to a pile driver?

I can't believe nobody has views they wish to share. What are your ideas on this subject.

[RenegadeMonk]

Hi Robert,

I am no karate teacher and I was never taught with very much Japanese terminology. What was used was so badly pronounced that for a long time it just confused things more. In addition I wasn't with a JKA-esque school so some of the things rammed down our necks may have been different, but I will give a stab at your query.

My understanding of hikite is that it is the "pulling hand" i.e. the hand that retracts as you apply a given technique with the other side of your body. When you say that the JKA ram this down their students necks I'm not sure I understand how it can be emphasised any more than in showing the hands moving in opposing directions when teaching basic technique.

There are techniques which don't use a pulling hand to counter balance them, closest to mind are the 3 gedan punches in bassai dai or the side-on forearm blocks after the tate shuto-uke.

If this is the first kata that such techniques occur in, then presumably the level the student should begin letting go of the need to support their strikes with hikite would be the level at which they begin practicing bassai dai.

In practical terms hikite (when not being applied as a technique in its own right as it was originally taught) generates big movements. The big basic blocking techniques, oizuki and gyakuzuki are all big long movements for fighting at distance and generating the maximum power. Essential tools for life or death encounters, but not (in their basic form) the techniques of a skilled fighter. Thus one could also surmise that when the student begins learning to control his emotions, pick his targets and start understanding how to stay in close to an opponent and actually develop as a fighter, that is when he can let go of hikite in order to learn to use shorter more whip-like technique and un-weight the other hand to let it act independantly.

I hope this provided some food for thought, but if I am way off, please feel free to tell me so.

[dodwatt]

Hi David, I think if you look at heian nidan, the first 2 moves do not use hikite, hence starting to show that it is being introduced at an early stage in our system, but not really practiced in our kumite drills until we have gained sufficient understanding and proficiency in our kihon.

I would say that when we start doing juyi ippon kumite is when we should start to introduce it more in our training, that is roundabout purple, purple and white belt, but if you think your students could cope, maybe a bit earlier.

[RenegadeMonk]

Well spotted dod.

[bushin]

Let me speak here with my own words and what Kase has written and talked about.
First of all the hikite (pulling hand or when its jammed into the hip) is very important and is not to be neglected, its a part of our system.

Beginners starts with large movements (O-Waza) because they simply need to build the necessary muscles and learn to coordinate the movements perfectly. This allows the beginner to gain maximum speed and power in a natural way because the movement is long especially in Kihon. That is way we have long movements in Kihon like "Oi-tsuki". This is very important that you build up your body and strenght up to the level Shodan before you are ready to move on. As you proberbly noticed big movements like Oi-tsuki is not realistic out in the street. So the big movements are there to help build up power.

"Taiji Kase describes this phase of development as an elementary school and point out that it is a very important step in the development, which should be studied carefully with lots of repetitions by both beginners and out of those who have trained very long. But there's is no reason to spend rest of their lives in school!"

So what does he mean by this? Simply that there is no point to get stuck in the training rest of your life and only do elementary karate (Karate that is based from the hip, i'm talking about your hikite to start with).

Kase had especially studied the open hand techniques for over 20 years of time. He also intergrated techniques from Kendo (Jigen-ryu, Ni-ten ichi-ryu) into the karate.

When the student have reached a good level, it is not always necessary to use the largest movements in the moment to achieve maximum effect.
The goal of these exercises is to achieve the same effect and force of all the techniques without thinking about each movement begins or ends.

By leaving the hikite-karate at one point, you can move more freely and more independent of your arm positions. This will open up your mind. Your techniques become more realistic in defence and attacks. This can be amplied into kihon, kumite and kata exercisses. You should strive for developing maximum power from any range and position no matter were your arms are.

When opening up hikite this will open up new areas like: O-waza,Chu-waza and Ko-waza principles which in turn can be added into kihon, kumite and kata. So my advise is, if you have reached up to Shodan or beyond it's time to start think about what you are doing, you may have som benifits from it. By using large techniques, mid-range and small techniques combined togheter we can get a very good system of defence.

I give you an small example that you can applie and try out . Llet me know if you have improved or not.
Lets keep it simpel, we take the kihon kata: Taikyoku Shodan not a impressive kata, not a very realistic kata. Only meaning is to build up our muscle and spirit.
To make Taikyoku more realistic and more challenging lets add som hen-te (same hand does more techniques).

1. add more techniques to every block and attack in the kata (1. technique gedan-barai to left and with the same hand Chudan-tate-uke) now do that in every part of the kata that there is an gedan-barai
2. in every Oi-tsuki do instead: Oi-tsuki+Jodan Ura-tsuki+Chudan Tate-tsuki.
3. to spice this up do it "Go" backwards and suddenly you will have an very realistic kata, ok still very low stances but use your mind and adapt it even more.
4. Now when doing this kata try to forget your hikite hand just let it hang straight down relaxed, just a bit kime to hold the arm in place.
5. for the advanced when done the blocking and attacks with the front arm add a Chudan or Jodan Shuto-uchi with the back arm.
6. By now the kata should be very challenging and good work out. Also a mind opnener.

This is what you can do when you not think about your hikite but its still there waiting to react...


GL
Osu

[bushin]

Number 5: should be Jodan or Chudan Haito-uchi.
/Sorry

[Grunners4]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Simo,
Personally, my view on hikite is that it emphasises (especially to a beginner) a very observable explanation for 'kime' ( which isn't the easiest concept to understand first up) Naturally, as you grow and you refine your technique ( use of your legs, hips, posture etc) the necessity for this point becomes less as your whole body works as a unit.
On a more practical level, in a fight, is it ever advisable to 'drop' your hands when doing a technique? no of course not ( unless its to feint) so while I admit I had never really thought about it before, hikites use would diminish over time.

That said however, without it, how would we ever let the centre judge know that we have score with a gyaku-zuki????

[bushin]

Hi Andrew i absolutly agree to the things you say. In Kase-ha we emphasise less the traditional Ju-kumite stance
therefor less hikite. We have only this rule: Keep your arms in anyway you want to as long as you have an idea of
what you are doing to do.

Also we emphasise different kamae positions in fighting, just like in Kendo with both arms active like the swords of Musashis
style (Ni-Ten Ichi-ryu).This is done to confuse or get an advantage and cut off the enemies chances to attack. This makes our
karate a bit different from the normal approach of Shotokan-ryu. I don't think hikite will diminish over time coz it's so vital
to the learning process of karate. But i do belive it's good up to a certain level and then it's time to let in a new bag of tricks into
your karate.

Hikite will always be there, we don't say not to use it, but instead we incorperate more techniques. Mostly the hikite is done when you
do a straight forward technique. To be able to do circular movements blocks and attacks we must let hikite go, so we can combine
2 arms at the time. This gives us an edge against the attacker we belive in

[fujicolt]

Interesting points Bushin - but as you no doubt well know this is a principle that Kase, Asai and others have been talking of for a very long time. For point of interest Naka Sensei was discussing this at the recent JKA European Course here in England a few weeks ago. Naka Sensei was also describing how senior grades MUST drill the fundamentals of Shotokan and especially so in Kata until they reach a Standard that allows them to adapt and make it more fluid and natural - and this does in fact entail (what will at first appear to be) almost a complete reversal of the factors originally taught - but further study shows it isn't is judge the next, of many stages. I recently saw a Naka Sensei training DVD that i do not think is yet available here in Europe (I haven't seen it advertised yet) - it contains elements that many will initially look at and say 'that's wrong' but it clearly isn't and echoes your comments - include the use (or not) of hikite).

it isn't actually anything new - just not widely practiced or understood outside of Japan - except by a few isolated people or groups - like yours!.

As you will know Steve Cattle was a serious student of Kase Sensei and Steve was teaching these factors long ago - shame he passed I am sure he would have spread it wider.

nice stuff Bushin - yer got the collective brain cells going now =

[Robert S]

Hente and Seite have long been part of the Shotokan training, dependent upon affiliation. Hente in itself may be closely related to the Ko-waza (short range) applications/techniques, akin to real battle when there may not be spacial distance or time to use long range.

The Oi Komi in Shotokan .e.g. Oi Zuki is an O-waza, and it is practiced repeatedly as it is in the safe environment of non battle. It may be seen as our trademark. Long range and fast. Here form is also essential in the training - so perhaps hikite make sthat form more correct and stable. The base side (sete side) is in support of the impact side; equal jobs, in fundamentals. As Naka sensei and others will say, repeated practice of this technique makes it natural.

O-waza is used to strengthen both the body and techniques, as the space and distance allows it. My understanding is that thekarate of Yoshitaks was largely hrough his training in O waza and stances that allowed length, where as his father was the shorter range.

If my understanding is near correct, the hikite is necessary to ensure the o-waza practice is correct and in form - call it beginners to intermediate level. Longer distance over the same or shorter time appears to be standard Shotokan in comparison to other Japanese styles. Perhaps more akin to Kendo training in many ways (Yabu Kentsu advocated this style of training).

Once that correct form, and external strength has been reached, the Ko-Waza, such as Hente are much more accessible. So our Kihon and Kata are largely O waza based, but if we look into them the Ko Waza is there, and always has been. The hikite is emphasised until natural.

At the time when we really start to apply jiyu kumite, especially away from Shiai (Taiki, tournament match) into Jissen, where nage waza, shime waza etc are employed, the Ko Waza, Hente etc become more the norm.

We get the natural karate, created from arduous repetition of karate that may have been 'basic'.

I could be wrong, but as Steve says this is not knew. It has always been around, but will only be seen where it has been allowed to become developed.

[bushin]

Interesting points Bushin - but as you no doubt well know this is a principle that Kase, Asai and others have been talking of for a very long time. For point of interest Naka Sensei was discussing this at the recent JKA European Course here in England a few weeks ago. Naka Sensei was also describing how senior grades MUST drill the fundamentals of Shotokan and especially so in Kata until they reach a Standard that allows them to adapt and make it more fluid and natural - and this does in fact entail (what will at first appear to be) almost a complete reversal of the factors originally taught - but further study shows it isn't is judge the next, of many stages. I recently saw a Naka Sensei training DVD that i do not think is yet available here in Europe (I haven't seen it advertised yet) - it contains elements that many will initially look at and say 'that's wrong' but it clearly isn't and echoes your comments - include the use (or not) of hikite).

it isn't actually anything new - just not widely practiced or understood outside of Japan - except by a few isolated people or groups - like yours!.

As you will know Steve Cattle was a serious student of Kase Sensei and Steve was teaching these factors long ago - shame he passed I am sure he would have spread it wider.

nice stuff Bushin - yer got the collective brain cells going now =

When i wrote it i didn't know how much people knew about this matter. I knew it's was nothing new under the sun, just not widley known.
But it's good people here already know about it. Yes i know about Steve Cattle and that he was a student of Kase. These teachings
are not forgotten or lost infact they are envolving further more so let's just keep doing that...
Domo-argiato

[d-star]

One thing to note what the old man was also takling about was, hikite back to the hip at "lower levels" and at higher levels that hand can move to many positions. these are in many kata, e.g osai -uke nukite in H2. moroto-uke etc and the tekki striking sequence.

Also beware the compo oriented auto return to the hip punching action. That hand could go anywhere - block, parry, recieve, strike, various kamae etc, not just the hip.

HAve a look at the vids posted on other thread / you tube recently you can see various hikite positions.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1827&start=0

[Paul Bedard]

Holy crow, what a good post. A lot for this redneck brain to absorb! Some terminology to study to boot.
Very good points about being basic to get strong & connected, then advancing to become more fluid. Kind of like striking a makiwara ( perfecting technique) & pounding the clocks out of a heavy bag, having one technique flow into another & maintaining a defensive posture.
Paul B

[nathanso]

I consider hikite to be at least in part a mnemonic device to help teach beginners to engage the whole body and not just the striking arm in the punch. When that is learned, the non-striking arm can be put to other uses if desired. Since a key principle is that one should be able to isolate the attacking limb from the other three limbs, I in fact consider it essential that students learn to use the non-striking hand for grabs, blocks, etc., while punching with the other.