Kokutsudachi

[RenegadeMonk]

I was once asked by a friend what the kokutsudachi of Shotokan was for and in particular why we have the back foot perpendicular to to the front.

I was reminded of this because of the interview with Ken Funakoshi: I once asked him what the purpose of back stance was, he replied he didn't know, he works his applications out of front stance because he could see no advantage to kokutsudachi.

I say this not to slight the man as he is the most skilled and knowledgeable martial artist that I have had the pleasure of training under, but it certainly made me think more deeply about the question than I ever had before.

So now I ask you fine gentlefolk, what use kokutsudachi?

[kanku]

Hi David , good subject you brought up , IMO the purpose of kukutsu dachi is the same as other stances we adopt during combat ,wheter it is in the dojo or outside .

stances are transitional , a basic purpose of back stance is in defence . as it has been practiced many times in many dojos, I am sure many here have done these . For example in dojo practice we change from shizentai or zenkutsu dachi to kukutsu dachi when attacked and switch back to front stance with our counter punch .

in free fighting it could be used in the same way but from a more agile aproach ,we can step back or even switch back or in an angle (tai sabaki) to back stance from fudo dachi or zenkutsu for a second or a fraction of a second ,just enough to avoid an incomming attack and then switch forward to front stance with a counter of our own . but if we freeze it frame by frame we should be able to see those stances similar to their basic form .

kukutsu dachi is not a stance adopted for facing your opponent ,but is a stance you can adopt for a second to avoid an attack and then move from it ,this is not to say it is the only way but it is just one possible way .

[fujicolt]

stances are transitional

But many still do not grasp this VITAL point - Kokutsu Dachi is no more useful OR useless than any other stance until you learn how to Instantaneously USE it and then move on! Stances are bodily structures to assist in achieving an aim - there are NOT 'stay there scaffolding' IMHO!

fighting means MOVE!

[Bob Davis]

Actually I have some footage of Ronnie Christopher demonstrating the transitional nature of these stances which shows this very nicely, and I would agree that generally stances ARE transitional except where used for training purposes.

However, something that doesn’t seem to ever get discussed (or practiced much from what I’ve seen) is the use of stance change in a static position for weight shifting without moving when working close quarters, the transition between Zenkutsu and Kokutsu are the most obvious examples of this (so one use of Kokutsu (among many)). This can be seen demonstrated quite frequently in the pulling/pushing/weight shifting in a static stance observed in some Tai Chi forms .

Just a thought.

[fujicolt]

Actually I have some footage of Ronnie Christopher demonstrating the transitional nature of these stances which shows this very nicely, and I would agree that generally stances ARE transitional except where used for training purposes.

However, something that doesn’t seem to ever get discussed (or practiced much from what I’ve seen) is the use of stance change in a static position for weight shifting without moving when working close quarters, the transition between Zenkutsu and Kokutsu are the most obvious examples of this (so one use of Kokutsu (among many)). This can be seen demonstrated quite frequently in the pulling/pushing/weight shifting in a static stance observed in some Tai Chi forms .

Just a thought.

And a bloody good thought - i totally agree! watch those Chinese martial artists do 'sticking hands' the legs control it - marvellous IMHO!

[fujicolt]

Actually I have some footage of Ronnie Christopher demonstrating the transitional nature of these stances which shows this very nicely, and I would agree that generally stances ARE transitional except where used for training purposes.

However, something that doesn’t seem to ever get discussed (or practiced much from what I’ve seen) is the use of stance change in a static position for weight shifting without moving when working close quarters, the transition between Zenkutsu and Kokutsu are the most obvious examples of this (so one use of Kokutsu (among many)). This can be seen demonstrated quite frequently in the pulling/pushing/weight shifting in a static stance observed in some Tai Chi forms .

Just a thought.

And a bloody good thought - i totally agree! watch those Chinese martial artists do 'sticking hands' the legs control it - marvellous IMHO!

[fujicolt]

I AM USELESS AT THIS COMPUTER STUFF AND DO NOT KNOW HOW I POSTED TWICE - HELP!

[RenegadeMonk]

An excellent point Bob, you have touched on a very deep subject.

I think part of the reason you don't hear much discussion of this element of stance transition is that people tend to think of Karate in purely percussive terms. The tai-chi fighter is not so much pulling as "yielding" i.e. on feeling his opponents force he moves with it, on the edge of it and coaxes the opponent into over balancing. What is important about this is the element of contact with the opponent and the range of techniques and methods that open up when one interprets shotokan techniques from this perspective.

Some contact applications are common, I'm sure we could all point to a wrist grab escape or a lapel grab escape, but these are usually comparatively few (at least to the "block and strike" crowd) and nearly always passive in nature

How this relates to our discussion of back stance is that I find this stance comes into its own when its technique applications are applied from contact rather than against free flying punches and kicks. I am in total agreement with Kanku's observation that transitioning into the stance is great for evasion, but I also now look at how that body shifting to the sides or at angles can power the hand techniques of the kata to manipulate the opponent.

Of course I'm sure this is decades old stuff and way more advanced, though highly elusive ideas are now the norm in many dojo, but I thought I'd share it anyway and see what you all make of it.

[fujicolt]

you bought IA's DVD then? - sorry i couldn't resist

[RenegadeMonk]

I don't own any instructional DVD's, however I have trained in some of those Chinese arts that you suggested we "watch", and used my experience in them to re-evaluate my Karate. I believed there was a relevant link due to the proximity of southern Chinese arts to the Okinawan Karateka. Sorry, that information may possibly have its roots in a book.

I would suggest (again), though I'm sure it will be ignored (again), that since hundreds of people view these forums, our collecting information be it new or old on a given subject is a positive endeavour.

Just to check though, do you have any new or at least non-decades old info about kokutsudachi Steve? The one comment you made, that stances are transitional, isn't exactly a recent discovery.

[shotokan101]

I'm quite surprised that so far nobody has mentioned the use of transition between stances - including kokutsu dachi - that is seen in every Kata....

JIm

[RenegadeMonk]

which use would that be?

[shotokan101]

which use would that be?

Well - was really only originally pointing out that most Kata - especially the non-Heian - are "rife" with stance changes and transitional movements - wasn't commenting on a "particular" "use".

However over and above the body training aspects of practicing the kata sequences and stance changes I'm referring to the fact that if you view the "possibility" that sequences from the kata are meant to reflect a (admittedly perhaps somewhat "stylised" today) defence/response to an opponents actions the obvious "implication" to me is that any stance changes in the sequence have "use" in that response scenarion.

Simple example - first move from Yoi position in Kanku Sho - shift stance from upright front facing Hichiche-Dachi ready position by dropping the bodyweight down and away from the threat as you simultaneously shift/slide into left facing Kokutsu-Dachi and present Morote-Uke in response to the attack/threat on the left.

The stance change/body shift in this example sequence obviously initially has the benefit of moving the body mass away from the attack/threat and presents a possible block/guard position to the threat and turns you to face the threat and continues to present a minimised core mass body profile by presenting a side profile.

Jim

[Tom O'Brien]

Kokutsu dachi, kokutsu dachi, kokutsu dachi - 'slowly I turn, step by step'. just the mention of this stance reminds me of the hours I spent moving back & forth across a gym floor doing this stance with shuto uchi. I did this primarily for it's use in bassai dai. It is very useful in kumite & it is very similiar to a defensive boxing move sometimes called the 'snap-away'. It reminds me of an old comedy skit, by Abbot & Costello, in which Abbot is incarcerated with a looney who goes off on the mention of the words 'Niagra Falls'.

Thanks,
Tom

[kanku]

I'm quite surprised that so far nobody has mentioned the use of transition between stances - including kokutsu dachi - that is seen in every Kata....

JIm

I am surprised you missed my post Jim !