Stances in Hangetsu?

[FJRGerry]

I'm in the process of learning Hangetsu on my own primarily from watching high ranked shotokan videos on Youtube and need clarification on the stance sequence.

Stances as I understand them:
1. Step with left leg into hangetsu-dachi
2. Step with right leg into hangetsu-dachi
3. Step with left leg into hangetsu-dachi
4. Pivot 180 degrees into hangetsu-dachi
5. Step with right leg into hangetsu-dachi
6. Step with left leg into hangetsu-dachi
7. Step/shight 90 degrees to the right into ??? - I've been using hangetsu-dachi (G. Funakoshi's book list immovable stance)
8. Step/shift 180 degrees (while turning towards the left) into ??? - I've been using hangetsu-dachi (G. Funakoshi's book list immovable stance)
9. Step/shift 90 degrees to the right into ??? - I've been using hangetsu-dachi (G. Funakoshi's book list immovable stance)
10. Pivot 180 degrees on right foot into Kokutsu-dachi
11. Cross over step with right foot - front snap kick with left leg into ??? - I've been testing hangetsu-dachi and zenkutsu-dachi
12. Pivot 180 degrees on left foot into Kokutsu-dachi
13. Cross over step with left foot - front snap kick with right leg into ??? - I've been testing hangetsu-dachi and zenkutsu-dachi
14. Pivot 180 degrees on right foot into Kokutsu-dachi
15. Inward half-moon kick with right leg - stepping back into zenkutsu-dachi
16. Stepping/shifting back with right leg into neko-ashi-dachi

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Gerry

[Paul Bedard]

Gerry, if your, not in hangetsu dachi, it`s kokutsu dachi, after the crescent kick you are landing hangetsu when you do the gedan gyaku zuki & yes the last stance is neko-ashi dachi. Immovable or rooted stance is fudo dachi & not in this kata. I would recommend the best karate series, for your reference material.
Paul B

[d-star]

Surely O-sensei's book is the definitive source?

C.

[Paul Bedard]

O.k. guys, the first thing that I want to do is say thank you, as your questions & comments have gotten my curiosity going full tilt & I have gone through my library extensively so I can give you my opinion based on at least an attempt at research. In so saying please understand that what I`m about to say is the product of my interpretation of the material that I have studied. So here goes:
Master Funakoshi wrote three books on karate, not including his biography, Karate-do my way of life. All his writings were in Japanese with a lot of Chinese references. 1st was Ryukyu kempo karate ( 1922 ). Next was Karate-do Kyohan,(first edition 1936 ),( second editon 1958, two years after he died ), also in 1943 he published Karate-do Nyumon. Again all were in Japanese.
The english version of Ryukyu kempo is called To-te Jitsu, if you come across this one, you will notice that the kata were named & done a fair bit different than what is practiced today. The english version of Nyumon was published in 1988, translated by John Teramoto of the Japan Karate-do Shotokai, in this book they push Ten-No Kata which is not that commonly practiced. ( I have my dojo go over it from time to time). Now I`m assuming that the book that Gerry is refering to is `Karate- Kyohan`, which the english translation of the second edition was done in 1972 by Tsutomu Ohshima of Shotokan Karate of America ( SKA ). If you were to read the forward of this book, Ohshima sensei will tell you that he struggled with the translation for a couple of reasons, primarily Japanese to english is hard, but also a lot of master Funakoshi`s references were in Chinese. So even though he did his best it`s an interpretation. If you look closely at the bottom of the page where he is demonstrating he mentions that immovable stance was changed. He even does kiba dachi after the kick & a sliding chudan punch. I don`t know maybe that`s the way that the SKA does Hangetsu but it`s not the most popular. So IMHO the english versions of master Funakoshi`s work are interpretations of the translators & an opportunity to show their method. Nothing wrong with that, but still an interpretation.
Now to the best karate series: by the time the that GF`s karate became shotokan & even more so, by the time the JKA was formed, the karate that master Funakoshi brought to Japan from Okinawa had evolved somewhat. Now it is my understanding that master Nakayama, who wrote the best karate series was the benefactor of the JKA after GF passed on & had pretty well spent more quality time with GF than any other. Therefore the best karate series is the most recognized resource material available. Even orgs that have split from the JKA still use this series as the proper way.
There are of course other interpretations out there, however just not as popular. Not that they aren`t doing good karate & what they think is right, they just have their little differences here & there.
I hope that I am not coming accross as a smart ass, but I felt that I needed to back up my opinion
Ultimately Gerry it will be up to you to decide which version or format to follow. However, I think I`m safe in saying that the majority on this site will suggest `Best Karate`..
Osu
Paul B

[FJRGerry]

I've rewatched the 3 videos once again I'm using to learn Hangetsu: Hirokazu Kanazawa, Masao Kawasoe and Osaka 8th dan (I don't know his first name). I was thinking hangetsu-dachi was correct, but since the video quality isn't the best it's difficult to tell. To me the stance after the crescent kick still looks more like zenkutsu-dachi though.

BTW the G. Funakoshi book I'm referring to is Karate-do Kyohan. It's an edition from the 70's and has numerous translater notes explaining updates to kata that are different than the pictures. I'm planning on buy H. Kanazawa's new kata book in the not-too-distant future.

[Paul Bedard]

Master Kanazawa`s books would of course also be a good reference as the SKI is a large organization. They could very well be doing zenkutsu after the crescent kick. Like I said every org. has their slight difference.
Osu
Paul B

[nathanso]

If you are going to buy a kata manual, I would strongly recommend Sugiyama's 25 Shoto-kan Kata. It's drawings are in some ways much easier to follow than the pics in the Best Karate series, and it's a real bargain for the price.

Also, you can get a free download of Rob Redman's kata book- it has a lot of information and presents descriptions of (the versions he learned of) all the kata.

[FJRGerry]

If you are going to buy a kata manual, I would strongly recommend Sugiyama's 25 Shoto-kan Kata. It's drawings are in some ways much easier to follow than the pics in the Best Karate series, and it's a real bargain for the price.

Also, you can get a free download of Rob Redman's kata book- it has a lot of information and presents descriptions of (the versions he learned of) all the kata.

Thanks for your suggestions. I've downloaded Rob Redman's ebook and just started reading it yesterday. I'll check out the Sugiyama book as well.

[kensei]

I have to say Paul has nailed it on the head. Each group has modified the Kata and stances used in the Kata. JKA uses only Hangetsu, Kokutsu and Neiko dachi for the movements, and with in the JKA you might find some that teach Zenkutsu after the Mikazuki geri.

However, I just wanted to illustrate how hard it is to translate the texts from Funakoshis origianl to english...not that I am a translator...just know a bit about Kung fu! Okay, first off let me start by saying that the Karate do Kyohan and Nyumon are NOT NOT NOT the normall Shotokan that you will see at most JKA derived groups or the JKA. Reason being is that the translator, models and translations are all geared towards Shotokai. Oshima arguable spent little time with the JKA and it seems more time with the Shotokai. His Karate in this book is heavily influenced by Egami Ha Shotokai. The stances, Ten no Kata and the rest are all pretty much out of the Shotokai play book of the time. Not that this is bad, but if you want to train mainstream Shotokan...well take the books for what they are!

Now here is my point on translation....the translator had to look at test and match it up to his knoweldge and training in the Kata...so, some of the issues he might have would be translating into Japanese many terms that are in Chinese, then trying to put them into English. Sounds funny, well many of the text that Funakoshi would have passed on would have the chinese terms for the stances! These "postures" were often given names in Chinese that were Poetic and more descriptive than the Japanese. For instance...how would you translate....
Xuan Ji Bu"Tricky leg stance or false leg stance", Deng Shan Bu/Gong Jian Bu " Bow and arrow/ Drawing the bow", Si-Liu Bu" four and six stance",Jin Ji Du Li" Golden rooster stands on one leg" and Ma Bu "To be on your stead"?
Well, let me introduce to you...in order...to the Cat stance, Front stance, back stance, single leg or crane stance and the basic side stance! You can imagine trying to figure out what the hell the instructor is trying to write when much of the text that he hands you is Chinese. Remember Japanese was not used much in Karate back then, and the spoken was not writen as much as well....ergo...you come out of a class after doing a sequence of ...
1.Left side down block, front stance
2.Sep in straight punch

You write it down as
Hidari, Gedan Barai / Zenkutsu dachi
Oi Zuki, Migi Zenkutsu dachi

and your instructor hands you a note that says...we did
Zou, Deng Shan bu, Ha Pak
You, Gong Jian bu, Jik Chung Choi

What the hell do you make of it?

Okay, so back to hangetsu. My advice is to watch Osaka, Nakayama said his technique is closest to perfection. that is if you want to be more JKA than Shotokai. Remember a Kata can be interpreted many ways and minor alterations come in all the time. Have fun training, that is what counts.

[FJRGerry]

James, thanks for your reply. Is this the Osaka you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmhApRBTTpU

I'm using this as one of the three videos to learn Hangetsu, but I'm unable to find out his first name.

These are the other two:
Masao Kawasoe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=selrM40RO4k

and
Hirokazu Kanazawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ebJlhR6Tns

Gerry

[kensei]

James, thanks for your reply. Is this the Osaka you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmhApRBTTpU

I'm using this as one of the three videos to learn Hangetsu, but I'm unable to find out his first name.

These are the other two:
Masao Kawasoe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=selrM40RO4k

and
Hirokazu Kanazawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ebJlhR6Tns

Gerry

all three are great, and yes that is Osaka Sensei