Arrogance, attitude, commensurate with grade?

[Robert S]

In general conversation with karate-ka, I always hear about people who seem to hold themselves above others. Unapproachable perhaps. Untouchable. People who seem to hold reasonably high grades, and then feel they are above the rest.

Is it just my feeling, or is there the brigade of people who feel that the world owes them something in return for the 20-30 gis they have purchased over the years?

I know of many Japanese instructors who will not let a student sit at their dinner table, as they are too low. They haven't earned the right, yet.

Whatever happened to 'shoshin'.

I notice this attitude in karate. But I do not see it in Iaido.

A few weeks ago I travelled to Germany (for Iaido) with a 6 dan, a 5 dan and a 4 dan. We met many senior European instructors. We sat on their table. We talked, we enjoyed.

At the dinner party the 2 Japanese 8 dans, moved around table to table chatting.

I am a beginner. Yet I got to share their time.

I go to a tournament in karate, and the 'don't approach me brigade' turn their backs, and only speak to the cronies. Most wearing blazers it seems.


Why do so many karate people get this strange attitude.

[kensei]

Ignorance and stupidity? Just a shot in the dark!

[Tom O'Brien]

False pride & egos.

Thanks,
Tom

[Fish Of Doom]

What they said ^

[Robert S]

Well, Let me expand this a little.

I have known several high grade Japanese, even in recent times. They are kings in their organisations.

I need a seminar. I pay 500USA a day (incl non teaching and travelling days), or I pay 500EUro, or 700USA (both incl travelling and non teaching days).

a 2 day class will cost me a minimum of 4 days = 2000 - 2800USA just for fees, and then add flights, hotels, meals, entertainmen, venue rentalt etc. We are now up to 5000 - 7000 for an average course. We get told about kihon, and more kihon. They will not let people sit at their table, and in fact some will not go with a group party. They demand gifts, expensive wine etc.

This is the average in my experience, not the exceptional.

Then I go to the other art (Iaido), with open eyes, but expecting the same.

3 x 8 dan senseis all get paid 50 Sterling (80USA) each per day, stay in dorms, eat in canteens etc. They teach, and they assist. They party, and they chat to all.

Who is right and who is wrong. Both sets of martial artists.

IMO Karate breeds arrogant money making characters.

We the karate-ka created them, as we paid their predecessors such homage. Now we suffer financially. The dojo kun is a scroll to hang on a wall, according to these men,as certainly there is no humility in making big money.

The student body created these men, and they now walk the world like royalty. A bit like a footballer r a movie star. Yet their classes are the same as they have always been. There is no real progression in their teaching.

Some of the westerners now copy this attitude.

High grade and status breed an attitude that does not befit the alleged humility of a karate-ka.

If there are others out there who are normal humans, then I apologise. But in my 40+ years around these men (including some westerners). all the high grades also carry a high ego.

But why?

[kensei]

As I have never paid these men to come to our organization, and just paid the rate that the org asks me to pay...often alot higher than my normal fees, I am SHOCKED at the amount of money they get paid..and then to demand a gift?

HUh, I taught a seminar a few months back including Karate Basics, Kumite, Kata and gave 110% of myself. I put other aspects of my many years of schooling into the course, such as the use of massage for adults to rehabilitate after a hard work out, taught people basically how to help eachother heal and be healthy after the work out. Did some mental image work and other things....and asked for $0.00 dollars from the group....I was paid $50.00 for two days, two hours a peice. I stayed behind and chatted with the students and gave some pointers on Karate and application using Judo and Karate in self defense.

I have been training 30 plus years and have black belts in Judo and Karate as well as having worked in security and personal protection....I think I have missed the boat on cost and charging students!

[Robert S]

James,

In recent years we have hosted 3 senior Japanese sensei here in the UK.

No names:

1) 500 Euro a day, incl travelling days, and rest days. That cost for 3 days was payment of 6 days. 3000 Euro. We paid airfare. We paid Hotel,good meals, and wine etc.He then said he wished certain products so we searched high and low for them. He selected, we paid. 2 x 90 min classes each day, so for 3 hours training we paid mega bucks.

He taught a very basic class - good, but the same as any other he had taught.

2) 500 USA a day, and the same overall issues as number 1. This individual stayed 2 days we paid 4 in total. 2 x 2 hours a day.

3) 500 USA a day, with rest day in between, Again same as no 1. 2 x 2 hours a day.

We also recently hosted another American Japanese. Much less money. Better classes. 6 hour a day!!!!!!!!

My comparison after paying such high fees for the last 12-15 years was only made when I saw how much Iaido big senseis got paid. 50 sterling daily!!!!!

So, every story I hear about big sensei is the same, gifts high fees, etc. WHY? This is insanity.

Ego comes to all races, but surely this over priced insanity is relative to the status grade etc. We wanted the big shots, and we paid huge money, They did not treat us with respect.

These same men took a lot of grading money home as well.

[kensei]

I remember one Judo camp we had a instructor come out and teach a class for 2 hours. He came up from the states and was a Japanese American of some rank...I was very young and dont remember. I do however remember that he stayed at the home of one of the instructors that was a Community club coach, he slept on the guys couch and paid his own gas to come up to Canada from the East Coast somewere.

all cost aside I can recal hosting several instructors here in Winnipeg and several were very nice (dont know how much we paid) but folks like Yaguchi, Koyama and Takashina sensei were so nice to us and chatted with us, ate with us...hell Yaguchi sensei stole food off my plate at a chinese joint one lunch!

I do recall one particular instructor that came up from the states who acted like we owed him something and was not friendly at all both times I trained with him. MAJOR ATTITUDE and he kind of barked at us outside the club when we picked him up and sat silently in the back of the car...and did not talk the whole time we drove him to and from the club.

I think it stinks. Making money is one thing...but that sounds much like hiway robbery!!!!!

[nathanso]

There are two different issues here IMO. If an instructor wants to charge $10,000 a day and a group is silly enough to pay him that, then I say that the fault is the group's and not the instructor's. If they are willing to pay without specifying in advance what they want to be taught, then they shouldn't be surprised if the class content is not necessarily what they wanted.

The other issue is personal behavior: some people are a-holes. Does karate attract more of them then other activities? I'm not so sure. I run across a lot of them outside the karate world.

While the solution is in principle obvious (don't re-invite a-holes; spell out in advance what should be taught, and remind them if it isn't; withhold some of their fee for breech of contract if they still don't), the problem is also obvious if you are dealing with someone that you are dependent on for gradings.

[Robert S]

Yes, and the king of the group is the final say in gradings. We pay the king, we feed the ego.
It is a vicious circle.

But the fact is, if I compare the two arts - 500 vs 35. Mmmmm, no brainer, The grades are the same. So why the fee so different?

Arrogance is not in the pay scale.

It seems that the higher some become the more they act a part.

[karaterowe]

(chuckles) I think I'll stay away from the KWF, then.

To answer "why", with regards to rank & ego... Well, my take is that karate is, and always has been, something of a cult world. As you stated, the students created these men -- externally recieved perception became the sustainance from which their ego's grew. It's no different than a religious sect, for example, where people congregate around a single figure for the purpose of obtaining some form of improvement to themselves. That type of dynamic always creates a feeling of self-importance in the "leader" (or king, as you mentioned), and when such feeling are manifested in behaviors like high fees, unreasonable demands, rudeness, etc; the individual(s) in question merely rationalize that artificially-created status as justification.

[Robert S]

Please don't assume I am speaking about any one association, as I am not. The initials Karaterowe mentions have not bee alluded to in any way by me.

Our assoc here hosts many kings from more than one mother group.

[kensei]

I am sorry, but if a instructor demanded 10,000 for a visit to teach I would ask him to pay his own air...his own hotel...feed himself...buy his own wine....and Paint my house...and possibly the club as well. $10,000 is what I would pay him for a LIFE TIME of visits every 6 months! Please, if he asked for that much I would expect him to be performing a hell of a lot more than just a 1 hour class two time a day for two days....Thats sick!

I have to say I would pay $150 to train with Yahara or Tanaka or some of the other big wigs for a three day visit twice a day. but I want more than "Ichi, Ni, San....."

[Grunners4]

Interesting reading and it does come down to money and power (surprise, surprise). How many times have you heard: "If you don't come on this course (and pay the course fee....) the you won't be able to grade"

On the other hand their are those out there who do it for the passion. Today we had a Japanese instructor teach for 3 1/2 hours, not request any sort of payment and even wanted to pay for his own lunch. He chatted freely with the students, answering questions (many refuse to do so!) and then spending at least another 2 hours sharing lunch and chatting.
Again, this instructor does have a job that affords him the opportunity to do this.
I don't begrudge any full-time instructor having a fee but it is about the excess. Again it is about a free market and if people are prepared to pay...well then...

I do agree with Robert though and want to add that dojo kun applies to much more than just training on the dojo floor, and unfortunately as with any set of codes/philosophy there is always the human element. There will always be someone out to gain at the cost of another.

To quote Stan Schmidt (SKM 105) "Mastery is not cast in stone. A so-called master needs to be vigilant and control his or her actions."

Pertinent words.

[Robert S]

And this is the issue.

If a student pays 150 a weekend, and the big wig sees 100 people, he does the mental calculation and knows he can charge 5000 in total.

I am not only speaking of Nihonjin Sensei. There is a famous instructor in the UK - so I hear - who went on a course, saw the amount of people, and told the organisers he wanted more than his agreed price as the group were making so much profit. (I would have shown him the door!). This is the sort of thing I refer to, an arrogance commensurate to grade.

Let's look at the big wigs, who also are rich outside karate. Why do they charge in the first place?

Back to the Westerners. How can we respect someone who calculates the profit on a course, then demand more?

On the point of arrogance. Let's take a recent Tournament, the judge makes a mistake by incorrectly calling 'mistake' on the performance as the kata (meikyo) is performed the Kanazawa way 2 x gedanbarai, 2 x uchiuke, 2 x ageuke). He demands the competitor be deducted points. And the competitor loses. It is an open Shoto event - so no JKA rules apply. Tackle the judge, and he says he is so and so dan, highest in the shiai-jo, and his call is law. That is arrogance. The organisers back that judge, and say decisions cannot be overturned.

This is the sort of arrogance I refer to. Their attitude is 'Don't question me .. I am so and so grade!!!'

So bl*&^ what! Mistakes are mistakes.

Why the arrogant attitude?

Yet we don't do much to affect change. The same judge is back the next event, doing the same things.

The same teacher is invited back.

The same students feed the egos by inserting greenbacks into the open slot!