Arrogance, attitude, commensurate with grade?

[Paul Bedard]

I certainly can`t speak for all orgs or comment on the tactics of all high ranking sensei. However, my experience is that yes there is a daily per diem & a hourly fee, and the higher the rank the higher the fee. I can only relate to our experience & my perception. When we bring in a high ranking individual we do expect that the majority in our area will make an effort to participate, this is to support the org in your province. When we have these large seminars to date the highest fee I`ve seen is $60.00 with a $10.00 discount for out of town guests that pre-register. For most karateka this is a minimum of 6 classes available & for dojo instructors & instructor trainees 3 or 4 more. At 6 classes this makes $12.00 a class, quite reasonable in my books. There is a set rate ruled by the org on what instructors are to be paid in accordance to their rank. It would be shocking to have a sensei state that due to the turnout he wanted more. Also our experience has been very good in the socializing thing. I have had many hours of socializing with a number sensei both Japanese & western. Always have my stuents been made to feel welcome when I introduce them or request to have a picture taken or to simply ask a question. I don`t know how I would respond to some of what I`m reading here. I`m quite sure that if I didn`t feel welcome, I would go shopping.
On the other hand, however commendable the low fee that the Iado instructors charge is a bit unusual as I`m sure that they are losing money at this rate.
Osu
Paul B

[kensei]

Paul has a great point. I dont see this being a universal thing. Now that I am on the "Inside" kind of I can see what kind of money ext we are paying out and I will have to reserve my Anxt now that we are with a new group.

As far as pictures go, I had a chance last Koyo I went to to get pictures with guest instructors and Ottawa instructors and friends and most were very happy to get a pic taken. Roy Chin Fe is the Chair for the CJKA and he was SUPER nice and took a pic with me. Tanaka Sensei stood next to me and after shook my hand and patted me on the back...Imura tried to do the "Bunny ears" thing and made a big joke of it the whole time. He was very very nice and entertaining.

Personally only a few instructors in a different org rubbed me the wrong way during seminars. Yaguchi Sensei is probably the nicest person I have met in Karate and he was SUPER social.

But the fact that you see some act the way they do...well that just means you shop around for different guest instructors.

[Tom O'Brien]

Wow! I charge $50 a month for 2 - 1 hour classes per week! I guess money is not my motivator. We have bare bones anyway - a garage, no heat in winter & no AC in summer. Whoever trains here will be tough regardless.

Thanks,
Tom

[Paul Bedard]

Tom, I charge $40.00 per month for two 1 & 1/2 hr classes for juniors & a third 1 & 1/2 hr for my seniors. mon & wed evenings & sat morning. I guarantee you that my pockets are not getting lined!!!
Osu
Paul B

[ScottLangley]

I was asked by one of my friends to have a look at this thread and encouraged to respond... I don't know if I have anything to add to the debate, but I will give it my best shot.

I think someone of Yahara Sensei and Isaka Sensei's case (which I presume we are talking about, although for some reason don't mention directly) I think they do deserve the fee of US$500 per day. That is also what Kagawa Sensei charges. Plus I think it is right to pay for their travel days.. Let me explain why. I teach professionally, I am in Norway as I write this, having taught for the last two days and will teach tonight in Oslo and then up to Trondheim for the weekend. I left Dublin on Wednesday and will get back Monday morning. Whilst I am away I must pay someone to teach my classes at my full time dojo. Fortunately, including myself, there are four full time instructors at my dojo, so I can always get someone to cover my classes. However, they, like me, are professionals so they must be paid. In this case I am travelling and teaching on the same day (Wednesday) and I get back on Monday in time to teach. So I don't have to charge for a travel day. However, if I travel farther afield I must charge for travel days. I have just taught in New Jersey, USA and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Whilst I am away I must pay other instructors to teach, therefore, I must charge the people who have invited me for every day I am out of Ireland.

Of course, my fees aren't nearly as high as Kagawa Sensei But I know he is in the same position. He teaches twice a week at the Hombu Dojo in Tokyo, but on top of that he also teaches at Teikyo University, the JKF, the Defence Force and various other private dojos through the week... This is where he gets his monthly salary from. I presume Yahara Sensei and Isaka Sensei are the same... So charging for travel days are justifiable, I think.

Now, does this breed arrogance? I don't think US$500 is a lot. Compare this to other athletes of similar level in other sports (I am not saying karate is a sport ) I have trained along side Kagawa Sensei enough on the instructors course to see how much effort he puts in to reach the level he has attained... He deserves every cent of the salary. I think what breed arrogance more is how instructors are treated when the come away to teach. People can not complain about how they are treated if this has been preceded by years of sycophantic behaviour. You can’t complain that instructors think they are Gods if they have been worshiped by inviting students.
Kagawa sensei comes to the UK every year. He teaches good, different classes every time he comes. After training he comes to the bar and has a drink with all the students. Anyone can ask him questions and believe me they do – on these course I spend most of my time translating for him as a steady stream of students come to ask questions. He is never arrogant, aloof or uses his grade as a carapace of protection… He is very amenable.

So I believe that if you are hosting a Sensei who comes, teaches badly, treats students badly and behaves badly, don’t invite them back! It is insanity to do the same thing every time but expect different results

[Makoto]

$500.00 is cheap. Epsecially when you go over 20 people to pay for it. I do not see the problem. It could be worse, you could be spending $1500 for plane ticket, $500.00 for hotel, $300 for food and what not, and $100-$200 for seminar.

Be happy they are coming to you, and you not having to go to them. If anything, I think it is too much to ask people to fly half way across the world to get a 4th dan or higher grading, or certain certifications. The organization should not be centralizing services, instead they should be providing great services to many places around the world. A person from Brazil should not have to fly to the US to get graded or certifited as an official. The examiners should be prepared to fly down and give the gradings and cert course there. And if by doing so, the person's daily fee is a bit higher, the regular members still wind up saving money in the long run.

[Robert S]

Let me make it clear -I am not directing the thread at any individual, so please do not read into it and assume I am speaking of individuals named by others. Yahara and Isaka senseis have been mentioned. Neither drink alcohol, so they are clearly not the people I allude to. In fact the last time Yahara sensei came here was 2005. So it is not them, please do not think it is.

We have had some other teachers, and they too, in the main, were fine. My point is simply 1) high fees for teachers, when taken into account with all the other sundries make it virtually impossible for a person to host a course; and 2) the fact that some teachers have asked for extra when they saw the turnout.

A few years ago we actually paid the fees (daily) inclusive of the two days the teacher (not named in this thread) went sightseeing - which we were also financially responsible for. It is this attitude I allude to.

The majority of the people I have come into contact with have been charming to me personally. I am not complaining about them at all. Again, do not read names into this, as I will not mention any names.

My question concerning fees is generic, why are all the persons of high grade charging this fee, travelling days, high standard hotels etc. etc. And it is based on the fees of the other art. Perhaps it is a karate thing, that we have bred high fees, by paying such homage in the past.

My question is: do these instructors expect this treatment as standard?

I re-iterate that I am not referring to any particular individual, nor should people read between the lines. It is a simple Q. And it is not solely directed at Japanese sensei. I have recently seen Westerners (As indicated) acting like the world owes them.

This perhaps is the crucial issue.

Why does a grade make a person try to achieve parity with the big names. Why does becoming the King of a group suddenly equate to money?

Why does someone gain a grade and then become a different person, even unreasonable? I mentioned tournaments and judges. I have heard people say things such as "I am the senior grade, I am telling you to deduct the points" or "Give this point'. When challenged, they blow up, and quote their years of training and grade etc.

This was my point, my original Q. Does grade breed some sort of arrogance, in some? Perhaps I have not phrased my point well.

But I have not alluded to those people chose to read into.

[Tom O'Brien]

Paul,

Pretty obvious that we are not in it for the money.

Thanks,
Tom

[kensei]

First off Scott has a great point about paying for travel days, The thing is that this is a business transaction and if that is part of the "deal" then we agree that we need to pay for days that he is travleing then fine, I think that is a good thing, but the I would only pay for Days that he is traveling and not teaching if if is TRAVEL DAYS. I remember an instructor that came to winnipeg on a Tuesday, sat in the hotel and went to meals on Wednesday...was NOT paid for that day and did not start the camp till Thursday night! If they had said they wanted to be paid for the Non-travel day they did not teach...I would have them start teaching a day early. If I show up for work and dont work but ask to get paid...I get fired...or at the least looked at funny!

Robert, we understand that Yahara and Isaka are not whom you are speacking about, I think it is VERY important to realize that Robert is not speaking ill of these men and he wishes not to offer names out of respect for those instructors that have perhaps acted poorly...or at least not wanting to sully their names in public, very nice of him!

we also have to say that high pay for higher ranks is fine, $500 a day is not to much to ask for a big camp, hell if its a BIG camp then $1000 a day for three classes is not to much, However Paying for their meals, air lines (in some cases I understand this) and hotel is a bit much...then add a $500 bottle of booze, and presents...WOW I want to find a job that offers this.

Paying for "Extras" should be the CHOICE of the orgnization brining in the instructor, not a given or expected thing...paying for sight seeing, booze, gifts, car rental, banquets in their honor or anything is an Extra and not part of a negotiation. IF an instructor told us $500 a day, with travel..>I would say "Sounds good", but if they then said "Bottle of 10 year old booze, expensive gift and I want to go on a tour of the city paid for by the organization".....well, I would say thanks for the negotiation and have a nice day. Maybe I would train with them at someone elses camp...but not at ours!

As for Hotels, I would put them up at the closest "Suitable" hotel and hope they enjoy the hospitality of a lunch with instructors each day they are in. Set them up at the expensive hotels that have all the bells and whistles....not going to happen!


As for Judging a tournament, I was told a very interesting thing by Saeki Sensei one time, something I will never forget! I was asked to judge a senior belt in Karate and told Saeki Sensei ( a man I have grown to Respect completely) that I did not feel like I should be judging seniors in Kata. He said "why not? You have eyes and an oppinion dont you?". I will never forget this. A junior was asked to help judge a senior because he had eyes and his own mind. IF a Senior had told me to give points a specific way that Day I would have still scored the Kata my way...because Saeki Sensei has spoken to me and plainly told me that it was MY oppinion that I was giving...not the other seniors!

To answer your question Robert, yes Grade Breads Arrogance in some, but not in all. I have trained for thirty years in Karate under a great man, and I have had the pleasure of training with many masters and great instructors. Of all of them my favorite were those that were personable, did not have an ego and loved Karate for what it was, not what they could get out of it money or power wise!

The things I have learned training with those that dont have huge Egos has taught me that Karate is not about getting something back when you get to a specific rank...its about giving something back when you reach that rank!

James

[Tom O'Brien]

Many things mentioned here are the reasons I never joined any major organizations. Just loosly associated with my sensei's friend since my sensei died. Always been cavalier. Sometimes paid the price politically. Always felt I had to do better because I never had a large org behind me. Made me stronger methinks.

Thanks,
Tom