Blocking in Front Stance

[Rob Copeland]

What do other Instructors think of the common practice of blocking in front stance in basic kumite?
I'm sure the majority of Shotokan Associations teach basic five-step kumite with both partners/opponents moving forward and backwards in front stance, but isn't it more sensible for the person blocking to do so in perhaps a back stance? Obviously the distance between attacker and defender is reduced on the first step as their bodyweights are over their front legs.

For senior grades I ask for different stances when defending in basic five-step and one-step kumite, anything other than front stance. The counter is obviously far more effective when transferring the weight from back to front stance.
After all, as soon as students move on to jiyu Ippon Kumite or Jiyu Kumite, front stance when defending becomes obsolete, to be used almost exclusively when applying the counter.

Is the oft recited reason of this being a tried and tested training excercise reason enough to continue teaching what seems quite an illogical sequence?

[Kris]

You raise some excellent points Rob, and I think you raise some things we should all really think about.

I think your right that kokutsu-dachi is the more effective blocking stance, as it increases the distance between attacker and opponent, and I think exploring this stance along with others is well worth while.

I do think though, especially at a low kyu grade, the use of zenkutsu-dachi is important, because it's at this stage in their training that they are learning about distancing, how it works etc Training at this proximity I think teaches you to deal with distancing, but also it teaches you about being under a degree of pressure, for it's almost damn sure that if you don't block, you'll get a broken nose, whereas kokutsu-training doesn't really have this threat. Do you think?

Training, using other stances is worth while though I think, but do dan grades really still practice gohon kumite, for it's only at this stage that they really have a wide arsonal of stances.

[Guest]

Defending from front stance to back stance is important especially for advanced students teaches them about moving body weight forard with the technique and not just hip rotation.
Also good to step back gedan berai and attack imediately forward on landing developes the right muscles to propel the body forward after stepping back.
Also good to do three step and four step training.

[kyusho man]

In my way of thinking gohon kumite teaches bad habits when being attacked. For both sport karate and reality training. When you teach it the tori (person being attack) stays in front of the attacker all the time, not only that but he/she is moving backwards five times not just the once. Common sense should tell you that you can move faster forwards than you can backwards but still people teach it. Stances for blocking is not that important to me it's more inportant to teach your student correct distance and angles to which they can use any basic stance they feel which will help them deal with the distance, and the counter attack. I know that robert copeland is mad on sport karate and teaching angle movement straight away to beginners will help them learn body shift and line of attack which is perfect for sport karate or the students progress for sport kumite. adapting any stance for any kumite will make it more natural for students reaction time also their movement and speed.

[Guest]

In my way of thinking gohon kumite teaches bad habits when being attacked. For both sport karate and reality training. When you teach it the tori (person being attack) stays in front of the attacker all the time, not only that but he/she is moving backwards five times not just the once. Common sense should tell you that you can move faster forwards than you can backwards but still people teach it. Stances for blocking is not that important to me it's more inportant to teach your student correct distance and angles to which they can use any basic stance they feel which will help them deal with the distance, and the counter attack. I know that robert copeland is mad on sport karate and teaching angle movement straight away to beginners will help them learn body shift and line of attack which is perfect for sport karate or the students progress for sport kumite. adapting any stance for any kumite will make it more natural for students reaction time also their movement and speed.

Nakayama and all the big boys were and are wrong then ?

[shingitai]

In my way of thinking gohon kumite teaches bad habits when being attacked. For both sport karate and reality training. When you teach it the tori (person being attack) stays in front of the attacker all the time, not only that but he/she is moving backwards five times not just the once. Common sense should tell you that you can move faster forwards than you can backwards but still people teach it. Stances for blocking is not that important to me it's more inportant to teach your student correct distance and angles to which they can use any basic stance they feel which will help them deal with the distance, and the counter attack. I know that robert copeland is mad on sport karate and teaching angle movement straight away to beginners will help them learn body shift and line of attack which is perfect for sport karate or the students progress for sport kumite. adapting any stance for any kumite will make it more natural for students reaction time also their movement and speed.

Nakayama and all the big boys were and are wrong then ?

Here is what I wrote in a similar thread about step sparring:

There are many things wrong with that drill but I'll point to some major things. Besides the fact that once back out of range there is no need to waste a hand/arm blocking, the whole thing is unrealistic.
The defender should be moving forward into the attack rather than back.
The attack should be stopped at the source. This allows a quick counter which should actually be done at the same time as the block/evasion.

If you move back away from a punch it must be because you don't want to get hit with it, correct? But you have to counter and hit him back. To do that you need to be close to him which means that the punch you just avoided has to be faced one more time as you move back in to counter strike. It makes no sense, why face a technique twice?

Another thing wrong with that clip is the way the defender steps back.
Even if you are going to step back, which I just said was wrong, you have to do it right. In step sparring the defender shouldn't actually step back. What they should do is just drop in place and shoot the rear leg back to support them. A front stance has it's weight directed forward. By stepping back you remove that. Just bend the knee, drop the center and shoot the rear leg back so that the foot hits the ground as the block meets the target for support. In this manner the stance is still directed forward while at the same time you are still close to your opponent enough to counter and move forward again without transferring weight.

From this thread: http://www.theshotokanway.com/phpBB2/vi ... .php?t=433


Are Nakayama and the big boys wrong? No, I wouldn't say that but I would say what they are doing is teaching a Kendo based ideal rather than a fighting method. For fighting it isn't workable.

[Guest]

Are the big boys wrong then ?
Sorry I was being sarcastic , of course its not fighting rather a training method .
Stepping back and driving in is a good way of propelling yourself forward again in jukumite five step one step three step what ever developes this action or reaction again I will reiterate most never train in the right way to develope this just treat it as a grading exersize.
Last course Sensei Abe did in Basingstoke he really put this over.

[shingitai]

Are the big boys wrong then ?
Sorry I was being sarcastic , of course its not fighting rather a training method .

Well then you need to use the emoticons

[fujicolt]

Sorry to keep repeating a point that i have been harping on about in mags, courses and now forums - for about twenty years

Most basic Shotokan kumite drills are often TOTALLY misunderstood - they are not meant to be real - are not meant to teach you advanced physical responses to attack BUT the WILL - if practised correctly - teach you essential fundamentals that enhance everything thereafter!

SO MANY - are simply approaching it and doing it WRONG!

[Guest]

Are the big boys wrong then ?
Sorry I was being sarcastic , of course its not fighting rather a training method .

Well then you need to use the emoticons

Tommy

My computer skills are not up to it yet I will work on it.

[Guest]

teach you essential fundamentals that enhance everything thereafter!

Can you please expand on this ?
I think we mean the same thing ?

[kyusho man]

The points which I made for gohon kumite are true, it teaches bad habits that are real hard to get out of when you are under stress. It's the same for the hikite hand when students train for years doing kihon and kata and maybe not so much time spend on sparring or reality training when faced with an attacker, they defend themselves by block and counter with one hand on their hip and they are wide open for a counter attack (always.) In my clubs there is only one rule for hands even in basic kumite and that is "HANDS DO TO THINGS IN A FIGHT PROTECT YOU AND HURT YOU ATTACKER". I believe has do many other instructors including instructors who were under top jka instructors believe there are more effective ways to teach students how to prepare for more advance kumite or even a street attack. Teaching them to stay in the line of attack and to move backwards is not very good idea for either sport karate or reality. Three A,B,C's AVOID, BREAK BALANCE and CONTROL. Perfect for any kumite (fighting).

[administrator]

The points which I made for gohon kumite are true, it teaches bad habits that are real hard to get out of when you are under stress. It's the same for the hikite hand when students train for years doing kihon and kata and maybe not so much time spend on sparring or reality training when faced with an attacker, they defend themselves by block and counter with one hand on their hip and they are wide open for a counter attack (always.) In my clubs there is only one rule for hands even in basic kumite and that is "HANDS DO TO THINGS IN A FIGHT PROTECT YOU AND HURT YOU ATTACKER". I believe has do many other instructors including instructors who were under top jka instructors believe there are more effective ways to teach students how to prepare for more advance kumite or even a street attack. Teaching them to stay in the line of attack and to move backwards is not very good idea for either sport karate or reality. Three A,B,C's AVOID, BREAK BALANCE and CONTROL. Perfect for any kumite (fighting).

Hi Guys, it is now policy that you must plave your name in your signature in order to participate on this forum. You can do this via your profile.

Thank you,

SHaun and Em

[fujicolt]

The points which I made for gohon kumite are true, it teaches bad habits that are real hard to get out of when you are under stress. It's the same for the hikite hand when students train for years doing kihon and kata and maybe not so much time spend on sparring or reality training when faced with an attacker, they defend themselves by block and counter with one hand on their hip and they are wide open for a counter attack (always.) In my clubs there is only one rule for hands even in basic kumite and that is "HANDS DO TO THINGS IN A FIGHT PROTECT YOU AND HURT YOU ATTACKER". I believe has do many other instructors including instructors who were under top jka instructors believe there are more effective ways to teach students how to prepare for more advance kumite or even a street attack. Teaching them to stay in the line of attack and to move backwards is not very good idea for either sport karate or reality. Three A,B,C's AVOID, BREAK BALANCE and CONTROL. Perfect for any kumite (fighting).

Sorry to be 'argumentative' but this typifies the point i mean about people NOT understanding what basic kumite drills are really for - if taught correctly they WILL enhance your fighting ability - if not they are counterproductive - understanding what they are for is the key

[kyusho man]

Steve I understand the principles of basic kumite(five step, three step) but I think that these principles teach bad habits which beginners and sometime karate ka who have trained for years find hard to get out of. Stepping back and blocking in the line of attack more than once is just bad practise. I think it's better teaching them straight from the start to move off line and always trying to break the attackers balance. This can be use in any kumite and will improve the defenders chances to counter attack without the attackers secondary attack hitting them. I believe most people who take up karate or any other martial art do it for self defence and if there train moving in the line of attack that what they will do under stress. "HOW YOU TRAIN IS HOW YOU ACT UNDER PRESSURE". I've trained in many different martial arts JKD, judo, wado, Aikido,kali, ju jitsu, silat, thai boxing, shotokan, mma. In these arts I trained with some of their best instructors and they teach to move of the line of attack and for all these arts to do that it must the correct thing to do. Lee.